Primordial Groove

You are if you are a christian. How do you like them apples?

Thats right, your supposed saviour is a heathen against the jewish religion and the roman government. He was nailed to piece of wood like a common criminal because, well, HE WAS! HAHHAAHAAHHA. You heathens better get your shit together before it is to late.

With that out of the way, why do you people believe such a stupid story. God killed himself to resurrect himself. What kind of twisted freak do you worship anyway?

Sorry for the rant but I had to get it off my chest.

Radorth

I don't care for sour green apples. I hear kids eat them, but only with lots of salt.

Ever heard of the Elsewhere forum? You might get a serious response there.

Rad

Magus55

Would you like a cookie?

Sabine Grant

Bonjour Primordial grove.... please provide documentation as to how Christ " was against the Roman government". If Ponce Pilate could not convict him as a criminal who broke any Roman Laws, how can you determine that he was indeed against the Roman government. A few more facts about Christ promoting submission to the Roman government of Galilee and equal treatment of Roman citizens..... " render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's". His help to a Roman centurion seeking healing for his servant.
Christ was a jew. He also practised jewish celebrations. The Last Supper was a Passover Meal. Are you confusing his rebuking and denouncing how the Pharisees had manipulated and misused jewish laws to control masses with him renouncing his jewish heritage?
I do not have a problem with you stating that Christ was not a jew but you will need to support your argument other than with just a rant........
I thought that the denial of Christ being a jew was only promoted by nazi ideology. I am really interrested........

AquaVita

This does appear to be more of a rant, rather then a real attempt at discussion. Off to ~E~

trekbette

I consider myself more of a godless heathen. Plus, I hate to wear shoes.

Primordial Groove

Sabine,

Yes, this was a rant but you bring up some very interesting points.

First, wasn't it the Roman tradition to nail criminals to crosses, stakes, whatever? This would imply that the Roman government had a hand in his death.

Second, what was the actual reason for his persecution and subsequent execution. Please do not bring up dying for sins and such. What was the actual reason?

The various claims surrounding his life were considered blasphemous by the Jewish religious leaders. Do you deny this?

Furthermore, define Jewish please. If, for exampe, a Jew converted to Christianity or Islam, would he still be a Jew? Or would he take the title of his new religion?

Kilgore Trout

Primordial Groove is right. Jesus overturned Jewish laws that their god ordered them to follow. For example in Mark 7:14-19 he said nothing you eat can make you unclean. That is completely contrary to god's instructions. All the "miracles" in the world do not make up for breaking god's rules. He is a heretic. Only someone who was brainwashed could read the new testament and not realize that. Jesus said people are supposed to do everything the teachers of the law say. The teachers of the law said Jesus was a heretic, so people are supposed to follow that.

Since the religious leaders of the day decided Jesus was a heretic, it is up to the christians to provide "proof" that he is not. The miracles and the resurrection are not proof because Deut. 13 says that even if prophets perform miracles don't follow them if they rebel against god. Jesus changed rules, said he was the way to heaven and refused to provide any evidence of this to the leaders.

azidhak

First of all (if we're going to take that BS seriously) Jesus were arrested for being a "robber" or such. The term "robber" were often used with general troublemakers and rebels (ok you probably know this). The Roman governors were NOT lentient towards the type of religious extremists as Jesus were concidered, especially if prominent Jewish religious leaders were demanding his arrest.
Secondly, if you read a bit of history, especially Flavius Josefus' "The Jewish War" you'll find that the concept of Pilatus "washing his hands" is laughable. Pilatus were one of the greatest and most intolerant bigots in the roman empire at the times. Even his superiors thought him a nuisance because he brought too much trouble.
Just my 2 denarii
Haakon

Sabine Grant

Bonjour Primordial Grove..... I was summoned back to your thread. A simple PM will do next time. Thank you !

You stated in your OP that he was " against the Roman government". The fact that he was executed by a mean of sentence applied to common criminals in The Roman Law does not prove that he was " against the Roman government". Ponce Pilate who was presented as the official rep. of the Roman Government in Galilee found him not guilty of any crimes against Ceasar. Unless you can show me in the Gospels where PP declares him guilty of any crimes against Ceasar.

Christ challenged the Pharisees or those he calls 6 times " teachers of the law" in Mat. However he is undoubtly a practising jew. Unless you can show me that he did not practise jewish celebrations in the Gospels.

To my knowledge Messiac Jews consider themselves jews. " Jews for Jesus" also do. A jew by definition is an individual who abides to judaism and practices judaism. However, in Europe jews can be defined as individuals who are jewish by ancestry ( hebrew) but are not necessarly abiding to judaism. Most jews I met and socialized with in Fance and Italy were both jews by ancestry and abiding to judaism. Same as I lived in Northern Africa.
Can you please provide biographical evidence that according to the Gospels Christ was neither a jew by ancestry nor was he practising judaism?

The Pharisees and Saducees were both extremely bothered by Christ challenging how they had applied the law. They pushed for his arrest and execution as he had denounced their ill intent to manipulate masses by misrepresenting God. He accuses them of having killed God's prophets. He gives specifics of their misdeeds thru the Gospel of Matthew. Christ's grief was for the priests of the Temple who had allowed mercantilism to be established in the sanctuary as well as for the " teachers of the law". Are you refuting that argument and maintaining that Christ was not a jew and " was against the Roman Government"
Please provide scriptures from the Gospels to support your arguments. Thanks.