Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Huginn · 03-15-2002, 03:25 PM

This should be fun.

There is a species of butterly that lives in Africa known as Papilio dardanus. It is a swallowtail butterfly and the males of the species a very similar to other swallowtails around the world, such as the <a href="http://www.loven.plus.com/nicksspiders/insects/swallowtail.jpg" target="_blank">eastern tiger swallowtail</a>.

Some butterflies, such as the <a href="http://www.loven.plus.com/nicksspiders/insects/monarch.jpg" target="_blank">monarch</a>, are poisonous due to their caterpillars' preference of foodplant. Swallowtail butterflies aren't poisonous.

The females of the species Papilio dardanus are polymorphic. That means that they have different forms within the one species. Some of these look just like the male swallowtail. Others, however, are a bit special, they very closely resemble several different species poisonous monarch butterfly, even to the extent of losing their distinctive tails.

See <a href="http://abacus.gene.ucl.ac.uk/jim/Mim2/dardanus.html" target="_blank">this page</a> for illustration.

What I want is your opinions on how and why this happened.

I would be interested in hearing the explanations from old earth creationists, evolutionists and intelligent-designists.

If creationism or ID are sciences that should be taught in school then answering this puzzel should be easy for imaginative followers of those two 'theories'.

Have fun.

NeilUnreal · 03-15-2002, 03:48 PM

Out of curiosity, for a non-entomologist, is it the mechanism for the polymorphism known? Are they different genotypes or does its expression depend on environmental or other factors? Are the various morphs found in all populations or are they different races? (If these are parts of your original question, you needn't feel obligated to answer.)

-Neil

[ March 15, 2002: Message edited by: NeilUnreal ]

Huginn · 03-15-2002, 03:52 PM

It is genetic. The different forms tend to be found in different regions. In Madagascar the females look like the males.

Kosh · 03-15-2002, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Huginn:

I would be interested in hearing the explanations from old earth creationists, evolutionists and intelligent-designists.

I'll answer for the creationsists...

God works in mysterious ways

Oh, and here's one for the ID'ers...

God works in mysterious ways

RufusAtticus · 03-15-2002, 06:15 PM

It's all about Mullerian mimicry.

-RvFvS

MrDarwin · 03-15-2002, 06:38 PM

Interesting. In North America, the eastern tiger swallowtail (Papilio glaucus) also has polymorphic females that occur in two color forms, the typical yellow-and-black (like the males) and all black, thought to be mimics of the unpalatable pipevine swallowtail.

gallo · 03-15-2002, 08:30 PM

Rufus,

Not to quibble but Mullerian mimicry is the sharing of similar markings by two or more unpalatable species. This seems to be an example of Batesian mimicry where a palatable species shares similar markings with an unpalatable one.

RufusAtticus · 03-15-2002, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gallo:
Rufus,

Not to quibble but Mullerian mimicry is the sharing of similar markings by two or more unpalatable species. This seems to be an example of Batesian mimicry where a palatable species shares similar markings with an unpalatable one.

Hehe. I didn't feel like looking it up. I figured I had a fifty-fifty shot.

-RvFvS

03-15-2002, 03:25 PM	#1
Huginn Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Lincoln, England Posts: 1,499	The Papilio dardanus challenge... This should be fun. There is a species of butterly that lives in Africa known as Papilio dardanus. It is a swallowtail butterfly and the males of the species a very similar to other swallowtails around the world, such as the <a href="http://www.loven.plus.com/nicksspiders/insects/swallowtail.jpg" target="_blank">eastern tiger swallowtail</a>. Some butterflies, such as the <a href="http://www.loven.plus.com/nicksspiders/insects/monarch.jpg" target="_blank">monarch</a>, are poisonous due to their caterpillars' preference of foodplant. Swallowtail butterflies aren't poisonous. The females of the species Papilio dardanus are polymorphic. That means that they have different forms within the one species. Some of these look just like the male swallowtail. Others, however, are a bit special, they very closely resemble several different species poisonous monarch butterfly, even to the extent of losing their distinctive tails. See <a href="http://abacus.gene.ucl.ac.uk/jim/Mim2/dardanus.html" target="_blank">this page</a> for illustration. What I want is your opinions on how and why this happened. I would be interested in hearing the explanations from old earth creationists, evolutionists and intelligent-designists. If creationism or ID are sciences that should be taught in school then answering this puzzel should be easy for imaginative followers of those two 'theories'. Have fun.

03-15-2002, 03:48 PM	#2
NeilUnreal Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: USA Posts: 77	Out of curiosity, for a non-entomologist, is it the mechanism for the polymorphism known? Are they different genotypes or does its expression depend on environmental or other factors? Are the various morphs found in all populations or are they different races? (If these are parts of your original question, you needn't feel obligated to answer.) -Neil [ March 15, 2002: Message edited by: NeilUnreal ]</p>

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03-15-2002, 03:52 PM	#3
Huginn Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Lincoln, England Posts: 1,499	It is genetic. The different forms tend to be found in different regions. In Madagascar the females look like the males.

03-15-2002, 06:15 PM	#5
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	It's all about Mullerian mimicry. -RvFvS

03-15-2002, 06:38 PM	#6
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	Interesting. In North America, the eastern tiger swallowtail (Papilio glaucus) also has polymorphic females that occur in two color forms, the typical yellow-and-black (like the males) and all black, thought to be mimics of the unpalatable pipevine swallowtail.

03-15-2002, 08:30 PM	#7
gallo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Houston, TX, US Posts: 244	Rufus, Not to quibble but Mullerian mimicry is the sharing of similar markings by two or more unpalatable species. This seems to be an example of Batesian mimicry where a palatable species shares similar markings with an unpalatable one.

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