Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 03-01-2002, 03:04 AM

"Moreover though I am a strong advocate for free thought on all subjects, yet it appears to me (whether rightly or wrongly) that direct arguments against christianity and theism produce hardly any effect on the public; & freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men's minds, which follow from the advance of science."

Also contains the true story of the myth of Marx wanting to dedicate Das Kapital to Darwin
<a href="http://www.gruts.demon.co.uk/darwin/articles/2000/marx/" target="_blank">http://www.gruts.demon.co.uk/darwin/articles/2000/marx/</a>

[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: turtonm ]</p>

Oolon Colluphid · 03-01-2002, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by turtonm:
<strong>... & freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men's minds</strong>

Bloody gradualist!

Hey, throw thse doors and windows open wide and have a punctuation event in education!

Oolon

eh · 03-01-2002, 08:29 AM

Now I know where Lennin got his ideas about religious freedom. Oh well, we all know how that turned out.

Vorkosigan · 03-01-2002, 02:10 PM

"Lennin?"

If you mean V. I. Lenin, his ideas on religion came from Marx, who did not believe in freethought. Since he did not believe in freethought, he could not have gotten them from Darwin (who did believe in freedom of ideas and tolerance of others). The sad truth is that Marx got some of his ideas on how belief systems should work from Christianity (he was raised Lutheran), which is one of the reasons Communism is so intolerant and bloodthirsty. After all, the Communists killed atheists and freethinkers who were not Communists.

Michael

eh · 03-02-2002, 09:50 AM

Yeah I meant Lenin. I recently read some material on his life. When he discussed religion, it sounded exactly like the Darwin quote you listed. He basically said everyone should have religious freedom, but the state should do everything to educate the people so as to prevent superstitions like Christianity from surviving.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it until Stalin came to power that superstitious religions were purged? Of course, they replaced the old religions with a new one, but that's another story.

Vorkosigan · 03-02-2002, 02:56 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by eh:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it until Stalin came to power that superstitious religions were purged? Of course, they replaced the old religions with a new one, but that's another story.

I was not referring merely to Russian Communism. But suppression of the Russian Orthodox Church began in the early 1920s. See if you can locate a copy of Lenin's letter to Molotov in which he outlines a policy of brutal suppression of the Russian churches. I think it dates from 1921 or 1922.

Michael

Dr.GH · 03-02-2002, 07:53 PM

Thanks for the link.

03-01-2002, 03:04 AM	#1
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Cool Darwin Quote from a letter of his to "Marx" "Moreover though I am a strong advocate for free thought on all subjects, yet it appears to me (whether rightly or wrongly) that direct arguments against christianity and theism produce hardly any effect on the public; & freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men's minds, which follow from the advance of science." Also contains the true story of the myth of Marx wanting to dedicate Das Kapital to Darwin <a href="http://www.gruts.demon.co.uk/darwin/articles/2000/marx/" target="_blank">http://www.gruts.demon.co.uk/darwin/articles/2000/marx/</a> [ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: turtonm ]</p>

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03-01-2002, 08:29 AM	#3
eh Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Canada Posts: 624	Now I know where Lennin got his ideas about religious freedom. Oh well, we all know how that turned out.

03-01-2002, 02:10 PM	#4
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	"Lennin?" If you mean V. I. Lenin, his ideas on religion came from Marx, who did not believe in freethought. Since he did not believe in freethought, he could not have gotten them from Darwin (who did believe in freedom of ideas and tolerance of others). The sad truth is that Marx got some of his ideas on how belief systems should work from Christianity (he was raised Lutheran), which is one of the reasons Communism is so intolerant and bloodthirsty. After all, the Communists killed atheists and freethinkers who were not Communists. Michael

03-02-2002, 09:50 AM	#5
eh Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Canada Posts: 624	Yeah I meant Lenin. I recently read some material on his life. When he discussed religion, it sounded exactly like the Darwin quote you listed. He basically said everyone should have religious freedom, but the state should do everything to educate the people so as to prevent superstitions like Christianity from surviving. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it until Stalin came to power that superstitious religions were purged? Of course, they replaced the old religions with a new one, but that's another story.

03-02-2002, 02:56 PM	#6
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	[QUOTE]Originally posted by eh: Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it until Stalin came to power that superstitious religions were purged? Of course, they replaced the old religions with a new one, but that's another story. I was not referring merely to Russian Communism. But suppression of the Russian Orthodox Church began in the early 1920s. See if you can locate a copy of Lenin's letter to Molotov in which he outlines a policy of brutal suppression of the Russian churches. I think it dates from 1921 or 1922. Michael

03-02-2002, 07:53 PM	#7
Dr.GH Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Point, Ca, USA Posts: 2,115	Thanks for the link.

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