Freethought & Rationalism Archive

zamboniavenger · 01-16-2002, 09:50 AM

I'm sure this topic has come up before, and been put more eloquently, but since it came up in my intro to philosophy class the other day I've been thinking about it. So, christians are always so proud of the idea of free will. But seriously, what type of choice is it when your only other option is an enternity of fiery damnation? That's not freedom. BTW, here's the passage I read that started all of this. It's from St. Augustus I think.

Quote:

Man is good, and better than the cattle because he is capable of receiving the precept; and better still when he has obeyed it; best of all when he is made happy by the eternal light of wisdom. Sin, or evil, consists in neglect to receive the precept or to obey it, or to hold fast the contemplation of wisdom. So we learn that, even although the first man had been created wise, it was nevertheless possible for him to be seduced. Because his sin was committed with his free will, a just penalty followed by divine will.

-DM- · 01-16-2002, 11:31 AM

One of the aspects of so-called "free-will" which most apologists fail to reckon with is that "God" could have created us with free-will yet have given us the quality of character such that, even though we have free-will and make our own choices, we make right choices. In fact, there is a problem in the concept of an allegedly perfect and omnipotent "God" creating anything which is in itself not also perfect. The way that I see it, a workman should not be thought of as perfect if his work is imperfect.

--Don--

01-16-2002, 11:45 AM

[--Don--[/QB][/QUOTE]

You argue this against the protestant idea that man is basically evil. In Catholicism man is basically good and the idea of evil did not come into existence untill after the ego awareness was created. That is to say, prior to the fall of man, man was naked to wit and felt no shame (Gen.2). After they ate from the tree of knowledge in Gen.3 the were no longer naked to wit and felt shame. Hence the figleaves.

This makes evil an illusion in a world that is not real. It is only because we life outside of ourselves (Eden) that we peceive evil as real.

Mageth · 01-16-2002, 11:45 AM

He could also have created a world in which any choice we made was "free" and had no "right" or "wrong" consequence (eat the fruit or not, if you want, and see what happens. Believe in me or not. I'll let you make your own path, make up your own mind, and won't condemn you because of it.)

01-16-2002, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
<strong>He could also have created a world in which any choice we made was "free" and had no "right" or "wrong" consequence (eat the fruit or not, if you want, and see what happens. Believe in me or not. I'll let you make your own path, make up your own mind, and won't condemn you because of it.)</strong>

But we condemn ourselves because we know that we will die because we remember that our ancestors did and we see our loved ones die. We are alienated from our own mind (soul) and therefore suffer and do things (pursuit of power wealth and beauty) the quench this pain of alienation. In our attempt to quench this pain we do harm to others and that is how evil came into existence. It has nothing to do with God but only our second self serving nature.

01-16-2002, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by zamboniavenger:
<strong> But seriously, what type of choice is it when your only other option is an enternity of fiery damnation?
</strong>

Well you don't have to believe it.

The only reason why we do not have a free will is because we are divided in our own mind.

-DM- · 01-16-2002, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
He could also have created a world in which any choice we made was "free" and had no "right" or "wrong" consequence (eat the fruit or not, if you want, and see what happens. Believe in me or not. I'll let you make your own path, make up your own mind, and won't condemn you because of it.)

Good point. I'll remember that.

--Don--

Mageth · 01-16-2002, 12:59 PM

If you think about it, such a world may be the only possible configuration in which god could have truly given us "free will." And it appears consistent with Universalism, or perhaps a form of Deism.

Jonny · 01-16-2002, 01:14 PM

Yeah I have thought about this to. Probably not enough. How is it a "free choice" or "free will" if we are only given two options to begin with. It would be more proper to be called a "restricted choice".

And why can't we simply be annihilated out of existence instead of burning forever? I think (and I don't know if this is logical or not, therefore I welcome critique and other harassment), if God knows everything, then he would know which people will go to hell and which people go to heaven. Apparently, according to the bible, most people are gonna go to hell. God knows that there's gonna be millions of his little creatures roasting, but he also knows that some of his creatures are gonna go to heaven. So if he was fair he wouldn't cancel out the whole plan just cause some people are gonna go to hell. Geez it is hard to put my thoughts into words. I'll be honest, if I was in charge of this universe I would make a 2nd option for unbelievers instead of just HELL. But anyway...considering that the bulk of you don't believe in hell, heaven, or a god to begin with, I don't see how I can possibly make any sense.

zamboniavenger · 01-16-2002, 02:40 PM

Hi guys, thanks for responding.

Quote:

Mageth said: He could also have created a world in which any choice we made was "free" and had no "right" or "wrong" consequence (eat the fruit or not, if you want, and see what happens. Believe in me or not. I'll let you make your own path, make up your own mind, and won't condemn you because of it.)

I think Mageth here strikes closest to what I was thinking about.

Quote:

Originally posted by zamboniavenger:
But seriously, what type of choice is it when your only other option is an enternity of fiery damnation?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amos said: Well you don't have to believe it.

True, that is the second option. But that's my point. (I'm just assuming the xian god is real here for this exercise). So, if there really is a xian god, heaven, and hell, I think that any rational person would have to chose to obey because going to hell would suck. It's a stacked deck of cards. There's no real freedom there.

Quote:

But anyway...considering that the bulk of you don't believe in hell, heaven, or a god to begin with, I don't see how I can possibly make any sense.

Don't be shy, I'm not very eloquent either. Besides, I at least, am assuming god is real for this exercise. See, I'm not really worried about going to hell, so shoot.

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01-16-2002, 11:31 AM	#2
-DM- Honorary Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: West Coast Posts: 5,714	One of the aspects of so-called "free-will" which most apologists fail to reckon with is that "God" could have created us with free-will yet have given us the quality of character such that, even though we have free-will and make our own choices, we make right choices. In fact, there is a problem in the concept of an allegedly perfect and omnipotent "God" creating anything which is in itself not also perfect. The way that I see it, a workman should not be thought of as perfect if his work is imperfect. --Don--

01-16-2002, 11:45 AM	#3
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	[--Don--[/QB][/QUOTE] You argue this against the protestant idea that man is basically evil. In Catholicism man is basically good and the idea of evil did not come into existence untill after the ego awareness was created. That is to say, prior to the fall of man, man was naked to wit and felt no shame (Gen.2). After they ate from the tree of knowledge in Gen.3 the were no longer naked to wit and felt shame. Hence the figleaves. This makes evil an illusion in a world that is not real. It is only because we life outside of ourselves (Eden) that we peceive evil as real.

01-16-2002, 11:45 AM	#4
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	He could also have created a world in which any choice we made was "free" and had no "right" or "wrong" consequence (eat the fruit or not, if you want, and see what happens. Believe in me or not. I'll let you make your own path, make up your own mind, and won't condemn you because of it.)

01-16-2002, 12:59 PM	#8
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	If you think about it, such a world may be the only possible configuration in which god could have truly given us "free will." And it appears consistent with Universalism, or perhaps a form of Deism.

01-16-2002, 01:14 PM	#9
Jonny Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Ca Posts: 57	Yeah I have thought about this to. Probably not enough. How is it a "free choice" or "free will" if we are only given two options to begin with. It would be more proper to be called a "restricted choice". And why can't we simply be annihilated out of existence instead of burning forever? I think (and I don't know if this is logical or not, therefore I welcome critique and other harassment), if God knows everything, then he would know which people will go to hell and which people go to heaven. Apparently, according to the bible, most people are gonna go to hell. God knows that there's gonna be millions of his little creatures roasting, but he also knows that some of his creatures are gonna go to heaven. So if he was fair he wouldn't cancel out the whole plan just cause some people are gonna go to hell. Geez it is hard to put my thoughts into words. I'll be honest, if I was in charge of this universe I would make a 2nd option for unbelievers instead of just HELL. But anyway...considering that the bulk of you don't believe in hell, heaven, or a god to begin with, I don't see how I can possibly make any sense.

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