Freethought & Rationalism Archive

excreationist · 02-15-2002, 05:29 AM

This is about Pascal's Wager. There are lots of Bible based religions where non-believers go to hell, but I was wondering if there are any other non-Abrahmic religions that do this...

I mean to undermine Pascal's Wager, the more mutually exclusive religions the better.

So I'm talking about religions that would send generous and moral Christians to some kind of hell, simply because they had the wrong belief system.

Thanks.

emotional · 02-15-2002, 12:04 PM

Hmm, it seems the Abrahamics have a monopoly on this tactic... I've heard Buddhism has a hell for those who go too low on their karma, and since Christians don't extinguish their desires but in fact indulge in them because they're already forgiven, then they might end up there. Of course, I may be mistaken here, and certainly the Buddhistic hell isn't eternal like the Christian or Islamic hell.

(edited to add: ) What am I doing?! Why did I ever go into a thread about hell? Why do I always wallow in negativity?

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: devnet ]

Eudaimonist · 02-15-2002, 01:01 PM

The Greek Hell is Tartarus. I have to wonder if the Christians simply lifted Tartarus from the Greeks. According to one site:

Quote:

Phlegethon is the river of fire, it led and surrounded Tartarus. Tartarus itself formed a dismal picture, it had gates of bronze guarded by Cerberus, surrounded by fire, encased by triple wall, and within, the wailing and cries of those being punished. It is the underworld zone of eternal torment, where the greatest sinners have been punished for their wrong doing.

I don't know if Christians would end up there. Perhaps someone dishonest enough to take Pascal's Wager would.

Do you really want to take the risk?

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonia ]

Kassiana · 02-15-2002, 07:13 PM

I don't know of anything analogous to the Christian concept of hell in religions of the East.

I know no modern day Pagans who believe in any form of hell other than for those who believe in it. In other words, while most of us Pagans don't believe in hells, we can say that if Mr. X does and does bad things (in light of his religious beliefs) which would send him to hell, then he would go to his religion's hell. But that's as a result of his God and his beliefs, not a result of ours. If Mr. X either renounced his belief in hell or joined a faith without a hell and continued doing the "bad things" but they were not condemned by his new religion, then he would no longer be in danger of going to hell, as that is not part of his religious paradigm.

So according to us, the only ones in danger of going to hell are those who believe in hell to begin with....

Eudaimonist · 02-16-2002, 06:22 AM

How about the doctrine of reincarnation? Is reincarnating into a miserable lifetime a kind of Hell? Are Christians more or less likely to reincarnate into a painful life due to their Christian beliefs?

RyanS2 · 02-16-2002, 03:30 PM

Babylonian religions had a "hell", but you had to be a traitor to go there, or someone who was a really, really bad person. Other religions with hell like Buddhism teach the doctrine of salvation through acts and knowledge, rather than "believe in my god". Pagan religions were very loose in the area of, "Do you love my God?" In fact, most people didn't actually know the name of their God, that's why EL/IL/ILU/BAAL were used, all of those were attached to a gender prefix and another word to name the God. Only the priests of Babylon and Canaan knew this "divine name". The peasants had no clue, so they called all the Gods EL or BAAL. (This is a later period in Canaanite history once EL was no longer used as a specific God in the Ugaritic texts. We have inscriptions with El over South Arabia, but obviously only as a generic deity title.)

Eudaimonist · 02-17-2002, 01:59 PM

I got sickened by a Christian tract that describes in gruesome detail the horrors of Hell, and decided to write an anti-tract in the following topic. My anti-tract is a subtle criticism of Pascal's Wager.

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=47&t=000116" target="_blank">Your First Six Days in the Afterlife</a>

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonia ]

Marduk · 02-17-2002, 03:44 PM

"How about the doctrine of reincarnation? Is reincarnating into a miserable lifetime a kind of Hell? Are Christians more or less likely to reincarnate into a painful life due to their Christian beliefs?"

I guess that would depend on their Karma, a nice loving, generous, mellow Christian might have good Karma, Pat Robertson on the other hand may awake to find himself transformed into a giant dung beetle.
The Hells of Eastern religions are not permanent for humans, but in some of them the higher up you go the farther you can fall if you fuck up really bad in some future incarnation, like an angel who fucks up is worse off than a human.

frostymama · 02-18-2002, 05:35 AM

You inspired me! The pic is crappy (

)... but it is the best I could do with a toddler crawling all over me.

Marduk · 02-18-2002, 03:28 PM

Very Good! I like it!

02-15-2002, 05:29 AM	#1
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	What other religions send non-believers to hell? This is about Pascal's Wager. There are lots of Bible based religions where non-believers go to hell, but I was wondering if there are any other non-Abrahmic religions that do this... I mean to undermine Pascal's Wager, the more mutually exclusive religions the better. So I'm talking about religions that would send generous and moral Christians to some kind of hell, simply because they had the wrong belief system. Thanks.

02-15-2002, 12:04 PM	#2
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	Hmm, it seems the Abrahamics have a monopoly on this tactic... I've heard Buddhism has a hell for those who go too low on their karma, and since Christians don't extinguish their desires but in fact indulge in them because they're already forgiven, then they might end up there. Of course, I may be mistaken here, and certainly the Buddhistic hell isn't eternal like the Christian or Islamic hell. (edited to add: ) What am I doing?! Why did I ever go into a thread about hell? Why do I always wallow in negativity? [ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: devnet ]</p>

02-17-2002, 01:59 PM	#7
Eudaimonist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Sundsvall, Sweden Posts: 3,159	I got sickened by a Christian tract that describes in gruesome detail the horrors of Hell, and decided to write an anti-tract in the following topic. My anti-tract is a subtle criticism of Pascal's Wager. <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=47&t=000116" target="_blank">Your First Six Days in the Afterlife</a> [ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonia ]</p>

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02-15-2002, 07:13 PM	#4
Kassiana Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: USA Posts: 5,046	I don't know of anything analogous to the Christian concept of hell in religions of the East. I know no modern day Pagans who believe in any form of hell other than for those who believe in it. In other words, while most of us Pagans don't believe in hells, we can say that if Mr. X does and does bad things (in light of his religious beliefs) which would send him to hell, then he would go to his religion's hell. But that's as a result of his God and his beliefs, not a result of ours. If Mr. X either renounced his belief in hell or joined a faith without a hell and continued doing the "bad things" but they were not condemned by his new religion, then he would no longer be in danger of going to hell, as that is not part of his religious paradigm. So according to us, the only ones in danger of going to hell are those who believe in hell to begin with....

02-16-2002, 06:22 AM	#5
Eudaimonist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Sundsvall, Sweden Posts: 3,159	How about the doctrine of reincarnation? Is reincarnating into a miserable lifetime a kind of Hell? Are Christians more or less likely to reincarnate into a painful life due to their Christian beliefs?

02-16-2002, 03:30 PM	#6
RyanS2 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Louisiana Posts: 216	Babylonian religions had a "hell", but you had to be a traitor to go there, or someone who was a really, really bad person. Other religions with hell like Buddhism teach the doctrine of salvation through acts and knowledge, rather than "believe in my god". Pagan religions were very loose in the area of, "Do you love my God?" In fact, most people didn't actually know the name of their God, that's why EL/IL/ILU/BAAL were used, all of those were attached to a gender prefix and another word to name the God. Only the priests of Babylon and Canaan knew this "divine name". The peasants had no clue, so they called all the Gods EL or BAAL. (This is a later period in Canaanite history once EL was no longer used as a specific God in the Ugaritic texts. We have inscriptions with El over South Arabia, but obviously only as a generic deity title.)

02-17-2002, 03:44 PM	#8
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"How about the doctrine of reincarnation? Is reincarnating into a miserable lifetime a kind of Hell? Are Christians more or less likely to reincarnate into a painful life due to their Christian beliefs?" I guess that would depend on their Karma, a nice loving, generous, mellow Christian might have good Karma, Pat Robertson on the other hand may awake to find himself transformed into a giant dung beetle. The Hells of Eastern religions are not permanent for humans, but in some of them the higher up you go the farther you can fall if you fuck up really bad in some future incarnation, like an angel who fucks up is worse off than a human.

02-18-2002, 05:35 AM	#9
frostymama Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Georgia USA Posts: 927	You inspired me! The pic is crappy ( )... but it is the best I could do with a toddler crawling all over me.

02-18-2002, 03:28 PM	#10
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	Very Good! I like it!

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