wildernesse

It's not odious at all when atheists do it, because they are right! (Of course.)

--tibac

beth

I have yet to see a reason that you should try to take her faith from her. She has every right to believe as she does. It is fun to debate, but it is as wrong for you to try to deconvert her as it is for her to try to convert you.

Walross

Originally posted by leftist:

I once had a girlfriend who was pretty hardcore fundy. She believed that the theory of evolution was a deception from Satan and numerous other wacky things. She even told me once that she thought the middle ages were a better time than now (I had to point out to her that the Inquisition would have roasted her fundy ass!).

Despite all that, she was a lovely girl and, when our relationship ended, we remained good friends. I never actively tried to deconvert her, but there were inevitable debates. Her arguments slowly changed over time, and I could see critical thinking skills begin to take hold. Eventually she went on to get a degree in Physical Anthropology. Today, she is one of my closest friends and has long ago dropped the fundy-ism. In fact, I suspect she is pretty much an apatheist. In any case, I can't help but think that her change in beliefs is at least partially attributable to her association with me. And it only took about ten years...

I guess my point is that people will believe what they believe and there is very little you can do to force a person to deconvert, but if you feel you must try, patience and understanding can often be more powerful than logic. Why is it so important for you to convince her anyway? Regards,

Walross

girlwriter

blondegoddess,

I respect your position, and as a general rule I like to stay out of people's business in this respect. However, I think deconverting a Christian that you care deeply about is different than trying to convert an atheist.

An atheist is risking a big maybe (eternal damnation in the fiery pits of hell) with no evidence. If said atheist decides to adopt a religion 'just to be safe,' said atheist has to decide from tens of thousands of them. Completely impractical. Converting an atheist means that person most likely will be adopting the wrong religion, rather than no religion. And if all religions are wrong, they are risking missing out on the here and now. A definite risk.

On the other hand, any religious person is taking a tangible risk, (that is living a religious lifestyle and choosing friends, etc, based on an arbitrary set of rules) in order to gain a big maybe. (eternal bliss in heaven)

I have family members that are completely lost to the real world around them, their children, everything...because they have chosen to forsake the world for god. This is not healthy, and sometimes you have to try to help the ones you love out of this kind of obsession. Remember also that it is easy for an unscrupulous person to take advantage of someone who's thinking has become so irrational.

I'm not sure, however that such attempts are very effective. Kinda like drug intervention I think, but probably harder. I don't think I would attempt it unless the situation became a threat to the person's physical well being.

yguy:

if I have to point out that your mean-spirited hope that anyone puts anyone else in the hospital is cruel and hypocritical coming from the mouth of a person who professes to follow Christ, you are lost indeed. Hopefully someone will care enough about you to try to dissuade you from such a callouse existence someday. I have to hand it to you though, you are awsome advertisement for the benefits of atheism.

leftfist

The reason it is important to me to deJesus her is because she is my girlfriend and she won't marry me as I'm not a Christian. We have been together 4 years and have had a great relationship other than this one (very big) issue. We are both ready (have been ready for a long time) to take our relationship to the next level, but we have this roadblock.

Her religion is also becoming more and more of an issue because it is becoming more and more prominent. She talks about Jesus more and more, listens only to Christian music now, etc. It is like an obsession.

Also, in response to the post indicating it is wrong to try to convert or "deconvert" someone - I disagree completely. A Christian believes that Christians and only Christians will receive eternal life - how can a moral person who honestly believes that be expected not to try to persuade others to his belief (especially people he cares about)? On the other hand, as an Atheist, I think the whole thing is nonsense, and that people would be a lot better off with reason and logic as their guides - what is wrong with me trying to persuade others to this belief?

wildernesse

Because in both cases, it is patronizing to believe that you know what's best for another adult, and that they are incapable of making the right decision (yours).

Also, as a Christian, I don't believe that only Christians receive eternal life--not all Christians believe that. There's a whole other thread on my particular beliefs, though, so no need to get into that here.

Of course, we all think that our worldview is correct--and it probably is *for us*, but we can't tell other people how to lead their lives according to our dictates and we shouldn't. Other adults are just that--adults--and can make up their minds for themselves. If they ask your opinion/beliefs, tell them--and I don't think that there is anything wrong with telling your beliefs or explaining them, but to campaign for them to rule in other people's lives is wrong.

I'm sorry that you are having problems with your gf, though. I am married to an atheist, and it can be tough at times (mostly due to outside influences , I am perfect and he is very verry perfect). You should probably read other threads about theist/nontheist relationships, it can be eye-opening.

If your gf won't marry you because you're not a Christian, why is she dating you? (Obviously this question is contingent on the two both wanting to marry!) Is she waiting on you to convert?

--tibac

beth

Okay Leftfist, I understand. I still say it is wrong to deconvert her. I think it is manipulative. But I can see your dilema. Maybe you can introduce a more liberal form of Christianity to her. I am married to a theist and deconverted well into our eleventh year of marriage. It has been a bumpy ride, but he is coming around. I, in no way, wish to deconvert him, but I am trying to liberalize and defundify him in some ways. It is working because it has to for us to have a successful marriage. I do not see you having to deconvert her as a basis for a good marrige.
I am sorry because I know you must love her dearly. All you can do is introduce rational thought but I think the more you try to dissuade her in her beliefs, the stronger she'll grow in them. Maybe you can, instead, give her and ultimatum.

I also think this is more of a SL&S thread.

yguy

I have never professed to be a follower of Christ. As for mean-spiritedness, I meant to express my disgust at the idea of deconverting or converting anyone against their will, even if by socially acceptable means. People who do that are the spiritual descendants of Torquemada, IMO. I don't really expect or hope that anyone will get hurt; I was merely being provocative.

Well, and a little mean-spirited too - might as well face it. Cut me a break, I'm human, K?

Bree

I also think this is an SL&S thread.

yguy

Sounds like you've got a selfish motive. If you really care about her, you want what's best for her, even if that means you never see her again.