Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Radorth · 03-01-2003, 03:24 PM

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Well no, it doesn't give much credence to anything. It's a hypothetical situation that some theists would find plausible given their gross misinterpretation of the atheist stance.

Huh? Well that's pretty silly if I read you correctly. An atheist responds that s/he would still deny God, and you say that is no indication that they mean what they say? Why bother with the conversation then?

Rad

Radorth · 03-01-2003, 03:58 PM

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If, as you claim, God's decision on our eternal resting place is made using his knowledge of how we will act in the future

Let me explain it better then, as your question appears sincere and valid.

Certainly a wise and loving God does not save people whom he thinks will just backlslide. That is one of my reasons for believing "once saved allways saved." (Plus many scriptures) If he refuses to save one who has not sought him with his or her whole heart, I think it is because he wants to "lose none" (which was what he tasked Jesus to ensure).

Besides a person who resists him to his face is a terrible bet. I might have said "Not that it would happen, since one who would resist God to his face would never get the chance."

Rad

Radorth · 03-01-2003, 04:07 PM

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I want to hear your answer.

Here's my answer. Two wrongs don't make a right where I come from. Although one could reasonably argue that the child might be better off, there is usually enough hope to preclude killing the child.

So ah, Daggah, do you think the kids in Africa are better off starving to death than growing up to bear children who starve to death? It's the same kind of question, admittedly unfair because there is no efficacious answer, and logic is virtually useless.

What does your blood-pumper say?

Rad

Magus55 · 03-01-2003, 04:16 PM

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Originally posted by Daggah
Magus, hypothetical scenario:

We know that children who are abused often grow up to be abusers themselves.

So let's say I know a young child whose parents are abusive. Let's also assume that Christianity is true and that this child does believe in God and Jesus, and as such, if he died, he would go to heaven.

Would it be morally right for me to kill this child? By killing him, I:

#1, give him an instant one-way ticket to heaven.
#2, end his suffering at the hands of his abusive parents.
#3, prevent him from growing up to be an evil, abusive person himself.

I want to hear your answer.

No its never right for a human to murder another human. Humans also don't kill people with the intentive purpose of sending the child to Heaven. Its always out of selfish reasons - even if hypothetical.

You also don't know the ultimate fate of the child. Just because alot of children who are abused grow up to be abusers doesn't mean the one in question will. You could be preventing that child from becoming a missionary and bringning many lost souls to Jesus. Only God knows the ultimate fate - which is why the flood wasn't a sadistic, genocidic act. God knew the fate of all the children in the flood and they had no hope or chance. So he killed their flesh so their souls would be saved from Hell ( where they were headed had they grown up) while they hadn't reached the age of accountability yet.

Not to mention. If the hypothetical mother believed that children go to heaven when they die, and she trusts God and Jesus to do the right thing - she would have never done it in the first place. True Christians don't kill their babies to send them to Heaven. If they truly have a relationship with God - they know its wrong.

Xionseeker: I don't see the point in continuing the discussion since it will only lead to fighting.

Magus55 · 03-01-2003, 04:21 PM

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Originally posted by Lobstrosity
Well no, it doesn't give much credence to anything. It's a hypothetical situation that some theists would find plausible given their gross misinterpretation of the atheist stance. Don't mistake my words as an atheist's admission that he would deny God even when given proof of God's existence.

So your answer to my question is that it would never happen because God would never let such a person into Heaven? I thought the only criterion for getting into Heaven was accepting Christ as your savior. If a person honestly does this in their life time, is this not enough to get into Heaven? What you're saying is that some people who accept Christ into their hearts will in fact go to Hell because God forsees that, once they are in Heaven, they will utilize the free will he gave them to change their minds? They are being punished for crimes they have yet to commit?

This then all leads to one final, giant question: what is the point of our being here in the first place? If, as you claim, God's decision on our eternal resting place is made using his knowledge of how we will act in the future (or even more generally, how any hypothetical individual would act were he to exist), why do we even bother going through the motions? Why aren't each of us just created into Heaven or Hell directly? Our actions can't determine our fate because God has had our fate mapped out since the beginning of time, according to you. Things don't happen as a result of what we do, they happen as a result of what God knows we will do, which makes our very existence pointless beyond belief.

If your heart is truly devoted to Jesus and you sincerely love him, you won't backslide in Heaven. We are perfect in Heaven and who would ever give up paradise surrounded by God's love with the greatest sense of peace and fulfillment ever, only to fall and go to Hell?

Hypothetically its possible - but the difference is - we know what the consequences are. We've seen the pain and destruction of sin and know where it leads - we won't be dumb enough after 1) being in the most wonderful place the human mind can even remotely conceive, and 2) knowing where it leads and the pain of Hell to rebell against God. Satan did it because he didn't know the consequences - Hell was created as a result of his rebellion. We know about Hell before reaching Heaven. Satan will also be locked away from us. We will be perfect and without temptation - will have not one single reason to rebell.

In the nearly non existant chance someone did choose to rebell? They would fall and be sent to Hell most likely.

Radorth · 03-01-2003, 04:29 PM

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BFI:Salvation from the mess he created in the first place?

Magus: God is patient but he has limits

BFI: Then he's not perfect

Well there ya go. A perfect God would just put up with evil, oppression and injustice forever. In fact, we are assured a "perfect God" would appear to 6 billion people and rebuke them personally each time they sinned. Surely he would prevent all test pilots from getting killed, drop water and food to people who chose to live on any mountain in eastern Utah as well as all the people in Africa. He would also let people have as much sex as they wanted with prostitutes, however obsessed they became, and would doubtless pay the prostitutes himself to keep the obsessed one's kids from starvation. And he would doubtless force irresponsible people to wear condoms.

Thus you could retain free will and have no problems at all. And of course "God is perfect" is shown to be a totally subjective and meaningless phrase.

Never mind that some atheists have already admitted they would live here anyway, with the world as is, even if God was in charge and personally threatened to punish them if they misbehaved.

In fact I think most would choose to live here even if God personally threatened to flood the earth at a point to be determined solely by him.

What's that I smell? Intellectual hypocrisy?

"Take it from me. I'm much holier than your God."

Rad

Daggah · 03-01-2003, 06:06 PM

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Just because alot of children who are abused grow up to be abusers doesn't mean the one in question will.

That is absolutely right. This is also true of the children allegedly being raised around all that sin around Noah's time.

So basically what you're saying is, the ends don't justify the means for humans, but they do for god. It's okay for god to kill innocent children, even though it's wrong for everyone else.

Such a loving and wonderful god.

03-01-2003, 06:17 PM

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Well there ya go. A perfect God would just put up with evil, oppression and injustice forever.

Yes, since he created them in the first place.

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In fact, we are assured a "perfect God" would appear to 6 billion people and rebuke them personally each time they sinned.

If your God was "perfect", sin wouldn't exist and he would have no need to rebuke anyone.

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Surely he would prevent all test pilots from getting killed, drop water and food to people who chose to live on any mountain in eastern Utah as well as all the people in Africa.

I never realized living in Africa or Utah or being a test pilot was considered a sin. Live and learn.

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He would also let people have as much sex as they wanted with prostitutes, however obsessed they became, and would doubtless pay the prostitutes himself to keep the obsessed one's kids from starvation. And he would doubtless force irresponsible people to wear condoms. Thus you could retain free will and have no problems at all.

None of which would be necessary if your God hadn't created man with these drives to begin with, knowing how they would affect him.

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And of course "God is perfect" is shown to be a totally subjective and meaningless phrase.

God is a totally subjective and meaningless concept.

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Never mind that some atheists have already admitted they would live here anyway, with the world as is, even if God was in charge and personally threatened to punish them if they misbehaved.

Well, God made them that way, so he's got nobody to blame but himself.

And are you saying God isn't in charge?

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In fact I think most would choose to live here even if God personally threatened to flood the earth at a point to be determined solely by him.

As opposed to going where? Venus?

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What's that I smell? Intellectual hypocrisy?

No, that would be all the bullshit your shovelling in here.

By the way...BFI?

Magus55 · 03-01-2003, 06:23 PM

Why do atheists always use the argument that since evil exists in the world, God can't exist? That is such a pointless argument.

Why can't you understand the concept of responsbility and the ability to disobey God?

If we didn't have Free will, you would be a worthless vegetable. You use Free will every second of every day. Choosing what you want for breakfast, lunch dinner. Choosing which way to go to work, choosing whether to put milk or cream in your coffee, choosing to cuss instead of remain unobscene, choosing to murder people or not etc. etc. etc. - Every single thing you do is based on Free Will. Now if you didn't have that you be nothing more a blob.

God gave you that ability. With Free will though, you have chooses to do Good or to do Evil. Sin is the result of choosing to do Evil. If God didn't give you that ability - again all humans would have been one big blob. Why is Free will and responsbility so hard to understand? As a kid, you had the choice to obey or disobey your parents - does that mean they raised you as an evil child? NO! It means you chose to do so. Same with God - he never raised (ie created) us as sinful, but we chose to disobey him.

Philosoft · 03-01-2003, 09:35 PM

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Originally posted by Magus55
Why do atheists always use the argument that since evil exists in the world, God can't exist? That is such a pointless argument.

Why can't you understand the concept of responsbility and the ability to disobey God?

We do. We just don't think it's relevant until you explain why an omnipotent, benevolent creator needs to allow evil in order to bring about whatever it is he wants to bring about.

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If we didn't have Free will, you would be a worthless vegetable.

So what? If I didn't have free will, I wouldn't be able to whine about not having free will. Besides, you haven't made the case that free will requires evil to exist.

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03-01-2003, 06:23 PM	#129
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	Why do atheists always use the argument that since evil exists in the world, God can't exist? That is such a pointless argument. Why can't you understand the concept of responsbility and the ability to disobey God? If we didn't have Free will, you would be a worthless vegetable. You use Free will every second of every day. Choosing what you want for breakfast, lunch dinner. Choosing which way to go to work, choosing whether to put milk or cream in your coffee, choosing to cuss instead of remain unobscene, choosing to murder people or not etc. etc. etc. - Every single thing you do is based on Free Will. Now if you didn't have that you be nothing more a blob. God gave you that ability. With Free will though, you have chooses to do Good or to do Evil. Sin is the result of choosing to do Evil. If God didn't give you that ability - again all humans would have been one big blob. Why is Free will and responsbility so hard to understand? As a kid, you had the choice to obey or disobey your parents - does that mean they raised you as an evil child? NO! It means you chose to do so. Same with God - he never raised (ie created) us as sinful, but we chose to disobey him.

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