Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Opera Nut · 05-01-2003, 10:47 AM

I refuse to be in the presence of any fundies, since I have been yelled at and called names such as "heathen" and "evil woman".

This applies even to close relatives and in-laws. No exceptions. I just don't go to their houses and they don't go to mine.

Fortunately we live in different states (the inlaws).

MrFrosty · 05-01-2003, 02:26 PM

Just wondering if there is any external pressure from, say, future in-laws or friends. Is the conversion to Christianity purely her request or is it expected / demanded from her parents -- perhaps a little of both? How much feedback do you receive on the predicament from her folks?

Do bear in mind that while atheist / theist relationships can succeed, as suggested by other posters on this thread, the nature of the relationship will impact on other areas: the actual marriage, bringing up children, potential source of conflict later on, etc. And how has your relationship survived for so long when something as seemingly divisive as religion has been ever-present? Did you both progress through the relationship with the assumption / hope that you'd cross this particular bridge once you reached it?

Maybe you could take the easy route and profess to sitting on the fence a.k.a. agnostic. From what you have written, I notice that you have at least attempted to go through the motions, e.g. reading the bible, without success. So how far do you need to go before this gf of yours becomes genuinely, completely convinced of a total conversion on your part? What is her specific, precise requirement? This is somewhat vague. How much is enough?

Seeker630 · 05-03-2003, 07:22 AM

for leftfist:

I have recently begun to question the wisdom of discussing my atheism with anyone of a theistic bent outside of a close circle of friends. Since I have moved to Florida, the JW's have been at my door at least 4 times (over a 9 month period). The last time I didn't even bother answering the door. A couple of other times though I tried to argue with them, to no avail. They are not interested in listeng to you--they are interested in listening to themselves. I recently had a quite hot discussion about it with my sister--and it got nowhere but left some lingering bad feelings.

Now if they come back I will just tell thm I'm not interested-period. I just can't see any point to it any more. They are too heavily indoctrinated. Atheism is something that you come to on your own. I think I'm just tired of hearing the same old apologetics time after time, and then seeing the believers jump right into denial. I have just come to the point that I can't justify wasting any more of my time in futile philosophical debates that always end up with "well you gotta have faith" and on ad nauseum.

Bottom line after you've shot down their best arguments:

They'll believe it as long as they WANT to believe it, or as long as they're afraid NOT to believe it.

leftfist · 05-03-2003, 05:22 PM

MrFrosty:
No real pressure from her parents. In fact, I have almost never discussed the issue with them (although they are definitely aware that I am an atheist). I'm sure they would want their daughter to marry a Christian, but what they want has never really been an issue.

As far as how our relationship has survived with this issue, all I can say is that we are in love. Neither of us really wants to be with anyone else, so why give up on this if if there's the slightest chance we can make it work? That said, there have of course been many difficult times.

She is very specific about what she wants from me as far as "converting." She wants me to profess Jesus as my Lord and Savior and confess that he died so that my sins would be forgiven. That's it. As far as specific doctrinal issues, she really couldn't care less because she believes that the above is the essential message and all that is required for salvation - in fact she says even if I disagree with her on every other religious issue that is fine. Thus saying I am agnostic really wouldn't help the situation, and would be dishonest also.

She has really given me a more concrete definition of her faith: she believes for essentially 2 reasons:
1. She has a feeling of conviction.
2. She can see God working in her life.

Both of these are of course meaningless. The feeling of conviction, well, feelings lead people astray all the time. What is particularly silly is that one day when I attended her church the pastor's sermon was partially about how you can't rely on your feelings - feelings lead people astray, your feelings may be completely and utterly wrong, and you need to use other means to guide yourself. As for God working in her life... Well, put it this way: Anytime the slightest good thing happens to her, she gives credit to God... when bad things happen, she just whines. The truth is good things and bad things happen in her life just like anyone else.

I have been reading about the Mormons. I find Mormonism interesting because it is a religion that was developed in fairly modern times, and thus much of its holy scriptures are easily dismissed as fakes. The Book of Abraham, the Book of Moses, and other Mormon scriptures have been completely and utterly debunked (the papyrus that Joseph Smith claimed was the Book of Abraham was actually an Egyptian funeral thing, having nothing to do with Abraham, etc), and Joseph Smith is known to have been essentially a conman. (By contrast, while I think much of the Bible is completely false, it was written millennia ago, and thus it is a little harder to be sure about things.) Despite this, there are still plenty of Mormons who believe every word of the nonsense. I am trying to find out how to use this to try to show the gf that people can be completely convicted of something and it still be completely false (of course she knows that, but maybe an example will help somehow...).

Tia · 05-03-2003, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by leftfist
MrFrosty:
No real pressure from her parents. In fact, I have almost never discussed the issue with them (although they are definitely aware that I am an atheist). I'm sure they would want their daughter to marry a Christian, but what they want has never really been an issue.

As far as how our relationship has survived with this issue, all I can say is that we are in love. Neither of us really wants to be with anyone else, so why give up on this if if there's the slightest chance we can make it work? That said, there have of course been many difficult times.

Hi leftfist,

I don't have advice as such but I just wanted to wish you all thebest. I really hope it works out fo rthe both of you. Is there no way that she can accept you as you are and marry you? It would be awful to give up someone whom you feel so much love for. At the same time...it would be preferable to base a marriage on an acceptance of each otehrs' differences rather than forcing yourself to convert or her losingher faith and then not being happy or feeling cheated otu of something...?

I'm in a relationship with pentecostal (as explained in my thread about dating pentecostals)...Although, I haven't been asked to convert by him...we're going through a rough time because as he feels he's rebelling against god by being with a nonchristian but he wants to stay with me. He feel scaught in between and doesn't know what to do.

I really care about him and would like to share more of my life with him but...I'm hoping he'll decide to stay with me and make peace with his god/faith and learn to feel less guilty about being human!

Anyway...just wanted to say that I really really hope it works out for you!!

Tia

leftfist · 05-04-2003, 10:55 AM

Thanks for the well-wishes, Tia. I hope things work out with your relationship also.

So the gf and I had a discussion about this last night. I brought up the Mormon thing. I don't know if it really helped. I essentially said, "Look at the Mormons, they feel a deep personal conviction that causes them to believe in Mormonism in the face of all this evidence contradicting their belief. Clearly it is possible to have this conviction about something that is simply false. Therefore, a strong personal conviction is NOT evidence."

Well, then I had to spend about half an hour arguing with her on several minor points (points she had already conceded to, but now decided to argue about again). Eventually she basically agreed that the Mormons do have faith in their religion, and they are wrong, and therefore faith is not a good way to determine whether something is true... and yet she still believes, for reasons that were incoherent.

I have such a huge problem with this "faith" nonsense. I mean, if you're supposed to believe something without evidence, how can you be sure to believe the right thing? If Christianity is the true religion, but (as she acknowledges) you won't come to Christianity through logic and reason, how the crap are you supposed to come to the right religion? What if you just trust in Hinduism, and put your faith there? Since you're not supposed to be using logic and reason, you will never come to the conclusion that Hinduism is wrong, and try something else... It makes me so angry that people actually believe this horsecrap.

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05-01-2003, 10:47 AM	#41
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	I refuse to be in the presence of any fundies, since I have been yelled at and called names such as "heathen" and "evil woman". This applies even to close relatives and in-laws. No exceptions. I just don't go to their houses and they don't go to mine. Fortunately we live in different states (the inlaws).

05-01-2003, 02:26 PM	#42
MrFrosty Moderator - Miscellaneous Discussions Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Shenzhen, S.E. China (UK ex-pat) Posts: 14,249	Just wondering if there is any external pressure from, say, future in-laws or friends. Is the conversion to Christianity purely her request or is it expected / demanded from her parents -- perhaps a little of both? How much feedback do you receive on the predicament from her folks? Do bear in mind that while atheist / theist relationships can succeed, as suggested by other posters on this thread, the nature of the relationship will impact on other areas: the actual marriage, bringing up children, potential source of conflict later on, etc. And how has your relationship survived for so long when something as seemingly divisive as religion has been ever-present? Did you both progress through the relationship with the assumption / hope that you'd cross this particular bridge once you reached it? Maybe you could take the easy route and profess to sitting on the fence a.k.a. agnostic. From what you have written, I notice that you have at least attempted to go through the motions, e.g. reading the bible, without success. So how far do you need to go before this gf of yours becomes genuinely, completely convinced of a total conversion on your part? What is her specific, precise requirement? This is somewhat vague. How much is enough?

05-03-2003, 07:22 AM	#43
Seeker630 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: North America Posts: 1,624	for leftfist: I have recently begun to question the wisdom of discussing my atheism with anyone of a theistic bent outside of a close circle of friends. Since I have moved to Florida, the JW's have been at my door at least 4 times (over a 9 month period). The last time I didn't even bother answering the door. A couple of other times though I tried to argue with them, to no avail. They are not interested in listeng to you--they are interested in listening to themselves. I recently had a quite hot discussion about it with my sister--and it got nowhere but left some lingering bad feelings. Now if they come back I will just tell thm I'm not interested-period. I just can't see any point to it any more. They are too heavily indoctrinated. Atheism is something that you come to on your own. I think I'm just tired of hearing the same old apologetics time after time, and then seeing the believers jump right into denial. I have just come to the point that I can't justify wasting any more of my time in futile philosophical debates that always end up with "well you gotta have faith" and on ad nauseum. Bottom line after you've shot down their best arguments: They'll believe it as long as they WANT to believe it, or as long as they're afraid NOT to believe it.

05-03-2003, 05:22 PM	#44
leftfist Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Charlotte Posts: 21	MrFrosty: No real pressure from her parents. In fact, I have almost never discussed the issue with them (although they are definitely aware that I am an atheist). I'm sure they would want their daughter to marry a Christian, but what they want has never really been an issue. As far as how our relationship has survived with this issue, all I can say is that we are in love. Neither of us really wants to be with anyone else, so why give up on this if if there's the slightest chance we can make it work? That said, there have of course been many difficult times. She is very specific about what she wants from me as far as "converting." She wants me to profess Jesus as my Lord and Savior and confess that he died so that my sins would be forgiven. That's it. As far as specific doctrinal issues, she really couldn't care less because she believes that the above is the essential message and all that is required for salvation - in fact she says even if I disagree with her on every other religious issue that is fine. Thus saying I am agnostic really wouldn't help the situation, and would be dishonest also. She has really given me a more concrete definition of her faith: she believes for essentially 2 reasons: 1. She has a feeling of conviction. 2. She can see God working in her life. Both of these are of course meaningless. The feeling of conviction, well, feelings lead people astray all the time. What is particularly silly is that one day when I attended her church the pastor's sermon was partially about how you can't rely on your feelings - feelings lead people astray, your feelings may be completely and utterly wrong, and you need to use other means to guide yourself. As for God working in her life... Well, put it this way: Anytime the slightest good thing happens to her, she gives credit to God... when bad things happen, she just whines. The truth is good things and bad things happen in her life just like anyone else. I have been reading about the Mormons. I find Mormonism interesting because it is a religion that was developed in fairly modern times, and thus much of its holy scriptures are easily dismissed as fakes. The Book of Abraham, the Book of Moses, and other Mormon scriptures have been completely and utterly debunked (the papyrus that Joseph Smith claimed was the Book of Abraham was actually an Egyptian funeral thing, having nothing to do with Abraham, etc), and Joseph Smith is known to have been essentially a conman. (By contrast, while I think much of the Bible is completely false, it was written millennia ago, and thus it is a little harder to be sure about things.) Despite this, there are still plenty of Mormons who believe every word of the nonsense. I am trying to find out how to use this to try to show the gf that people can be completely convicted of something and it still be completely false (of course she knows that, but maybe an example will help somehow...).

05-04-2003, 10:55 AM	#46
leftfist Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Charlotte Posts: 21	Thanks for the well-wishes, Tia. I hope things work out with your relationship also. So the gf and I had a discussion about this last night. I brought up the Mormon thing. I don't know if it really helped. I essentially said, "Look at the Mormons, they feel a deep personal conviction that causes them to believe in Mormonism in the face of all this evidence contradicting their belief. Clearly it is possible to have this conviction about something that is simply false. Therefore, a strong personal conviction is NOT evidence." Well, then I had to spend about half an hour arguing with her on several minor points (points she had already conceded to, but now decided to argue about again). Eventually she basically agreed that the Mormons do have faith in their religion, and they are wrong, and therefore faith is not a good way to determine whether something is true... and yet she still believes, for reasons that were incoherent. I have such a huge problem with this "faith" nonsense. I mean, if you're supposed to believe something without evidence, how can you be sure to believe the right thing? If Christianity is the true religion, but (as she acknowledges) you won't come to Christianity through logic and reason, how the crap are you supposed to come to the right religion? What if you just trust in Hinduism, and put your faith there? Since you're not supposed to be using logic and reason, you will never come to the conclusion that Hinduism is wrong, and try something else... It makes me so angry that people actually believe this horsecrap.

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