Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Goliath · 10-11-2002, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by K:
I think we've lost BreezeinaTree.

*sigh*. I hate to say it, but you're probably right.

Damn post'n'run xians...

Sincerely,

Goliath

Eudaimonist · 10-11-2002, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by K:
I think we've lost BreezeinaTree.

I don't think she expected us to be able to add options to Lord, Liar, Lunatic. Maybe she's checking her math.

Amazon · 10-11-2002, 12:18 PM

Hi there, BreezeinaTree and everyone.

Just wanted to poke my head in to pat Breeze on the back for his desire to read beyond the gospels for evidence to support his faith.
That was a big part of my own deconversion from Christianity, because I chose to read not only things that tried to further justify Christianity and God with "evidence", I also looked up the rebuttals to those books, and looked for books from perspectives I disagreed with.

You mentioned that you read Josh McDowell's "Evidence That Demands a Verdict." Have you researched rebuttals to his book? Here's one:
<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gordon_stein/jesus.shtml" target="_blank">The Jesus of History: A Reply to Josh McDowell</a>
Obviously Mr. McDowell has a vested interest in his theology being true, and that makes his "research" suspect. The author of the linked article points out that Mr. McDowell likes to stop researching when he finds "evidence" that fits his foregone conclusions, and doesn't dig any deeper (or conveniently doesn't include the further research in his book).

I would recommend to anyone, on any subject they consider important, to not only dig deeper, but dare to read what you don't think you agree with. It's truly enlightening.

DivineOb · 10-11-2002, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Hmmm, maybe the point of the "theist" rhetoric isn't setting in, so I'll spell it out for you: If you grant that the xian god exists (and, thusly, that the supernatural exists) how can you prove my theist alter ego's claims to be false?

I have not been granting any of that.

Quote:

For that matter, as soon as you posit something supernatural, how can you stop the descent from a universe with predictable, verifiable properties to a universe that exists only in your mind?

I have not been positing anything supernatural

Quote:

Ummmm..EXCUSE ME?! Why does your profile read thusly (emphasis mine):

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

User Status: IIDB Visitor
User Number: 5211
Registered: December 19, 2001
Posts: 21
Interests: Computer Architecture, Death Metal
Basic Beliefs: Reasonable Christian

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you enjoy lying to me?

Sincerely,

Goliath

I made this account when I was still a christian. I fail to see how lying about whether I am currently christian or not would help me 'win' anything with you. Not changing my profile was an oversight.

Anyway, you seem pretty intent on not answering my question, so I'll asking it one more time just in case the fault has been mine this whole time.

(and, yes, in the text below I am now granting and positing the supernatural. The delusions of modern day believers are not relevant to the question at hand).

Let's play pretend and assume that a teacher named Jesus existed.
Let's play pretend and assume that this Jesus had followers.
Let's play pretend and assume that this Jesus was executed and resurrected from the dead exactly once.
Would it be more likely that those original followers of this Jesus would have seen (with their eyes) compelling evidence of that death and resurrection than a modern day believer. I freely admit that I am inventing this scenario, so merely pointing out that it did not happen can only be viewed as an evasion. Yes or no and why? I do not care about modern day believers who believe they feel Jesus through the holy spirit and whatnot as I am only concerned with experiences arrived at through direct visual evidence.

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: DivineOb ]

Goliath · 10-11-2002, 10:24 PM

DivineOb,

Quote:

I made this account when I was still a christian. I fail to see how lying about whether I am currently christian or not would help me 'win' anything with you. Not changing my profile was an oversight.

Understood. Please accept my apologies for jumping to such a conclusion.

Quote:

Anyway, you seem pretty intent on not answering my question,

No, I've been doing almost nothing but addressing your non-arguments in this thread.

Quote:

(and, yes, in the text below I am now granting and positing the supernatural.

Let's play pretend and assume that a teacher named Jesus existed.
Let's play pretend and assume that this Jesus had followers.
Let's play pretend and assume that this Jesus was executed and resurrected from the dead exactly once.
Would it be more likely that those original followers of this Jesus would have seen (with their eyes) compelling evidence of that death and resurrection than a modern day believer.

Impossible to tell. How do you know that this god does not magically take modern day believers back in time to witness Jesus' alleged death?

Are you getting the point, yet? If you're positing the existence of an omnipotent supernatural being, then literally anything is possible.

Sincerely,

Goliath

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: Goliath ]

fromtheright · 10-12-2002, 01:37 AM

For what it's worth (OK, not much) I must say it's great to see (if the first two pages of this thread are an indication) such a civil, friendly discussion and response to Breezina. I've seen some rather nasty exchanges in IIDB so as a fellow Christian it really is great to see a polite discussion.
As an aside, I'd never thought about it until someone here pointed out how engineers seem to be more theistic. Here in "engineer-land" most of the people I have known in the churches I have attended here are engineers.

Janaya · 10-12-2002, 07:02 AM

Breeze,

I would be happy to provide examples to back up my statements in response to question 3. However, I would like to request a new thread for each statement. I can see that each one of these statements could easily become a lengthy thread all on their own. (and this one is long enough already)

You asked for examples and I could easily give one or two for each, however, I feel that it would not do justice to the subject. I'm sure many more people would want to specifically address your responses/questions.

I might simply start a thread on my own, but you asked and you should be the one to do it.

Awaiting your response,
Janaya

BreezeinaTree · 10-12-2002, 09:18 AM

A few of you think I've gone...I have not. I've been busy at work and at home.

I'm gathering my sources and will provide answers to some of your questions. Again, if there's a delay, don't assume I'm gone.

K · 10-12-2002, 12:54 PM

BreezeinaTree:

Thanks for the update.

gilly54 · 10-12-2002, 08:22 PM

Hi, Breez,

I think a lot of us are still waiting for your proof that God exists, since the burden of proof is squarely on the shoulders of believers. Or did I miss it? Thanks.

BTW, Here's some interesting reading. The research was conducted by some Biblical archeological scholars at Tel Aviv University.

<a href="http://www.worldagesarchive.com/Reference_Links" target="_blank">http://www.worldagesarchive.com/Reference_Links</a>

Then click the "False_Testament" link.

Gilly

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10-11-2002, 12:18 PM	#153
Amazon Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Chicago area Posts: 210	Hi there, BreezeinaTree and everyone. Just wanted to poke my head in to pat Breeze on the back for his desire to read beyond the gospels for evidence to support his faith. That was a big part of my own deconversion from Christianity, because I chose to read not only things that tried to further justify Christianity and God with "evidence", I also looked up the rebuttals to those books, and looked for books from perspectives I disagreed with. You mentioned that you read Josh McDowell's "Evidence That Demands a Verdict." Have you researched rebuttals to his book? Here's one: <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gordon_stein/jesus.shtml" target="_blank">The Jesus of History: A Reply to Josh McDowell</a> Obviously Mr. McDowell has a vested interest in his theology being true, and that makes his "research" suspect. The author of the linked article points out that Mr. McDowell likes to stop researching when he finds "evidence" that fits his foregone conclusions, and doesn't dig any deeper (or conveniently doesn't include the further research in his book). I would recommend to anyone, on any subject they consider important, to not only dig deeper, but dare to read what you don't think you agree with. It's truly enlightening.

10-12-2002, 01:37 AM	#156
fromtheright Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 633	For what it's worth (OK, not much) I must say it's great to see (if the first two pages of this thread are an indication) such a civil, friendly discussion and response to Breezina. I've seen some rather nasty exchanges in IIDB so as a fellow Christian it really is great to see a polite discussion. As an aside, I'd never thought about it until someone here pointed out how engineers seem to be more theistic. Here in "engineer-land" most of the people I have known in the churches I have attended here are engineers.

10-12-2002, 07:02 AM	#157
Janaya Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 226	Breeze, I would be happy to provide examples to back up my statements in response to question 3. However, I would like to request a new thread for each statement. I can see that each one of these statements could easily become a lengthy thread all on their own. (and this one is long enough already) You asked for examples and I could easily give one or two for each, however, I feel that it would not do justice to the subject. I'm sure many more people would want to specifically address your responses/questions. I might simply start a thread on my own, but you asked and you should be the one to do it. Awaiting your response, Janaya

10-12-2002, 09:18 AM	#158
BreezeinaTree Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: USA Posts: 15	A few of you think I've gone...I have not. I've been busy at work and at home. I'm gathering my sources and will provide answers to some of your questions. Again, if there's a delay, don't assume I'm gone.

10-12-2002, 12:54 PM	#159
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	BreezeinaTree: Thanks for the update.

10-12-2002, 08:22 PM	#160
gilly54 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New Almaden, California Posts: 917	Hi, Breez, I think a lot of us are still waiting for your proof that God exists, since the burden of proof is squarely on the shoulders of believers. Or did I miss it? Thanks. BTW, Here's some interesting reading. The research was conducted by some Biblical archeological scholars at Tel Aviv University. <a href="http://www.worldagesarchive.com/Reference_Links" target="_blank">http://www.worldagesarchive.com/Reference_Links</a> Then click the "False_Testament" link. Gilly

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