Ronin

I truly appreciate that recognition.

I do not know of any such local ordinances in my community. Though, I am sure, that there may be significant health issues associated with the unsupervised living conditions of large groups of the homeless in a specific area. This is probably the issue that ordinance is addressing.

Yes ~ there are these types of systems in place which are regulated. My 92 year old grandmother still volunteers at such a shelter, dispensing food and vibrant personality.

If only one person benefits from the availability of these types of systems then the overall health of a society improves.

Only as much as they will accept or request until they are directly a threat or unconscious.

No.

A year and a half ago I found a lady by the name of Lovella suffering from a lacerated left cheek where she had been attacked in a public restroom. She was transported to a local hospital and given my card. Since then, every month or so, Lovella shows up at my office with assorted loose leaf paper containing long narratives regarding really rather non-descript times in her life when she was happy.

I have talked to her at length regarding her aspirations (she hopes to be a writer) and her travels. I have only obtained that she does have a daughter somewhere in the midwest and possibly an estranged husband.

Once, I attempted to elicit a name or point of contact for anyone who may be concerned for her and she became aloof. When pressed she told me to fuck off and stormed off into the night. The next time I saw her, she continued exactly where our conversation had left off prior to my sincere attempt at getting her to family.

Lovella is astute enough to pay for a PO Box where she draws a social security check, yet, as I look into her eyes and see how she is kept I know that her mental and physical health is deteriorating.

I offer her a bag of chips, coffee, anything, while we talk and refer her to available services when I can work it in to the casual conversation without offending her.

That is all I can do.

When they are an imminent threat to others or otherwise obviously deranged or unconscious.

Other than that anyone is only free to suggest options.

Law enforcement.

Generally, misdemeanor arrests introduce them into the first governmental system where their health can be assessed. Short of incapacitation, however, they are responsible for seeking those available services that may help them.

The man I spoke of earlier is the first and only person that ever took the time to find me and tell me of his appreciation regarding my treatment of the condition he found himself in. He related to me that he suffered a similar episode in another community and that the police treated him harshly, cast their uninformed aspersions on him and put him in a cell.

As he walked away, I made it a point to capture that moment in my memory as that was where a battle was won, despite all of the apparent hopelessness that abounds.

Ronin

Beyelzu ~

Well, at the very least you state that my altruism is a virtue. That you despise the idea of the virtue of altruism merely reflects poorly upon the selfish and narcissistic tenets you espouse.

I assure you that I have used no ploys, as that would imply that I am trying to embarrass, frustrate or contrive a stratagem to convert you to virtue. This will never by my agenda as we each have our own path.

I am only expressing my opinion on the subject of selflessness, understanding and basic human compassion.

Your practice and mindset is a common one, I have found.

Governmental systems are in place for the homeless and are limited and heavily monitored.

Giving homeless people food and shelter because they are in need is exactly the ‘way to go’. Trying to do so when they are not in need is the time you move on.

On this, we agree, and that was the deciding factor in the article I linked to.

If you recall the concluding statement ~ "If they're not in violation of the laws and there's no apparent mental problem, we're limited on what we can compel a person to do," said Pascagoula Police Capt. Jamie Hunter. "It's frustrating for us, but it is part of the benefits of living in a society that allows that much freedom."

As for me, I will continue to offer friendly conversation and a cup of coffee to anyone I observe walking in the shadows of a society consumed by the neon distraction of its own endless cravings.

livius drusus

Your phrasing is as achingly beautiful as the sentiment it expresses. Thank you, Ronin.

"We all carry within us our places of exile, our crimes, and our ravages. But our task is not to unleash them on the world; it is to fight them in ourselves and in others."
-- Albert Camus

Sabine Grant

Oui Ronin.. Basic human compassion is the key phrase. That contagious wave of modifying circumstances in someone's life. And if unable to modify them, the validation given to another human being by simply saying " Hi there!". We all have the capacity to validate the most miserable person.

One needs not to be involved in any endeavor to offer presence and validation. We can do at any time anywhere. We can overcome what was not done for us by doing it for others. Compassion promotes self healing. It gives us a purpose and it challenges us to intervene without considering who deserves it and who does not.

Beyelzu....how you feel today and now may be quite different years down the road of life. Do not hesitate to use your own potential and uniqueness.

beyelzu

ronin,
That you despise the idea of the virtue of altruism merely reflects poorly upon the selfish and narcissistic tenets you espouse.

how have i been narcissistic? more to the pont, specifically what have i said that leads you to believe that i am narcissistic. selfishness is a virtue. selflessness on the other hand makes no sense at all. the wants and needs of others should never be more important than your wants and needs. think about what selflessness means. it means no sense of self certainly no self worth. if all you care about is other people happiness. you misunderstood my point about government programs, or perhaps i wasnt making myself clear. government handouts are immoral because the government has no money. in order to pay for things the government forces citizens to pay for them. the key word here is forces. i believe in rational self interest, how is that wrong? i believe in caring for yourself above all others. again, how is that wrong. i believe that you can only love someone else when you truly love yourself, again, how is that wrong.

also, i would like to point out that i said "your" virtue. i do not in fact consider altruism a virtue. i do however believe in subjective morality.

beyelzu

sabine,

actually if someone needs validation, then no one can give it to them. because validation like self esteem can only come from within.

Ronin

Narcissism ~ egocentric: being limited in outlook or concern to one's own activities or needs.

Selfishness ~ concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others.

You consider selfishness a commendable act?

I don’t even have to provide a personal anecdote to make that point crystal clear.


Surely you can see past the extremes you portray as faulty in order to find a happy medium.

However, given that potential, think of the improvements that could be made to society by everyone actually helping everyone else.

Worth is abundant by bringing whatever comfort you can bring to those less fortunate or suffering. In this way, another is potentially there for you when you find yourself in this condition.

It is significantly wrong minded because the self interest you portray is unyielding and extreme and not rational.

Again, you speak generally of ‘government handouts’ as being immoral in the face of bureaucracies that are in place to regulate these offerings.

That they, perhaps, do not meet your self proscribed selfish standards does not support your claims.

Because that statement is far too general and opens the floor to all sorts of hypothetical moral quagmires, Beyelzu.

Not only that, one cannot possibly exist in such a vacuum.

We are merely speaking of levels of compassion and I find a better world in offering more to others ~ to include my own life if necessary.

That is not wrong…and I have never made that claim.

However, are you now saying that you would act in a loving and compassionate manner to someone else under certain circumstances?

I would very much like to hear more of this side of you.

Uh, what?

How is the virtue of *my* altruism any different from standard, everyday, virtuous altruism?

beyelzu

ronin,

i will accept that i am narcissistic by that definition(with an exception to the part about outlook. i can see other peoples pain) and i never even said that i wasnt selfish. i just view selfishness as a virtue. but again i argue that only seeing yourself through other people's eyes is wrong. and yes selfishness is a virtue. caring about yourself, knowing yourself are all good things. if i deify anything its individualism. i said in another post somewhere that i believe absolutely and fundamentally in the potential for greatness in all human beings. and this is true. but we must shake off the altruism that has been ingrained in many of us by the church and probably even longer. your ideas make alot of sense in a tribal setting. unfortunately, we dont live in such a setting. "improvements made to society" i point to every greedy capitalist, every robber baron. every rugged individualist who was motivated by self interest. they are the ones who accomplished things.

and no i dont see a happy medium. i veiw every selfless act as bad or morally wrong.

tell you what, give me an example of a moral quagmire that my view presents and i will deal with it.

i also do not feel that my views are irrational. i believe that a society can function and grow and, indeed, if all people felt as i did, thrive.

quote
Worth is abundant by bringing whatever comfort you can bring to those less fortunate or suffering. In this way, another is potentially there for you when you find yourself in this condition.


i wont find myself in that condition. if i make poor choices and end up there, then that is my problem and i wouldnt accept handouts anyway.


quick morality check ronin. you and i are close friends and you have a friend named bob. bob breaks his leg and cant pay his rent. you ask me if i want to help bob pay his rent. i say no. you pull out a shotgun and force me to help bob pay his rent. is that moral?

well thats just what the government does.

need is not a virtue.

again on the subject of altruism. i do not actually acknowledge that it is a virtue. in my earlier post i was not clear. when i said your virtue is based on altruism. i meant that your system of morality, and thus virtue, is based on altruism. i never meant to imply that altruism is actually a virtue.

Ronin

Yes. This position you have made clear, Beyelzu, and you may live your life accordingly.

On the other hand, real humans may perish around you and your omission to act may not be acceptable to an orderly society or to your own sanity.

You have created the ‘only seeing yourself through other people’s eyes’ scenario. You create extremes where there are none.

A community or tribe must have a sense of common moral decency ~ altruism, integrity, honesty, empathy and action.

Again, I do not assert that we should individually carry others throughout their lives.

However, there is a moral duty to support the disadvantaged so that they may help themselves.

Consumed with the truly ‘selfish’ ideal of solely caring about yourself to the extent of ignoring the plight of others is wrong, Beleyzu.

You must have a balance.

Best of luck to you in your endeavors.

I hope you find someone special to share your life and your ideals with…oh, wait…sorry, nevermind.

I am a strong atheist.

I discovered the tenets of my perspective by observing life from the nexus of suffering, horrific tragedy and injustice stemming from the selfishness you espouse as virtuous.

I may even agree with you that I am fighting a great lost battle against the tide of those like you, Beyelzu.

Still…I have breath and blood.


I do not agree. Please elaborate of just what kind of setting you observe that ‘we’ are living in.

I think we simply differ, albeit in outrageously divergent directions, on what ‘things’ we place our value in if those are your role models.

Fair enough.

I was going to introduce you to this gorgeous woman, who is a very wealthy IT corporate executive looking for someone to share her passion for intellectual conversation with, however, fuck off ~ she is really hot, so I’m just going to take her out myself. I do this with full knowledge that you have been hard up for months.

A crazed killer puts you at gunpoint as you return home from the kitty-skinning factory. You really should have noticed the beat up car parked on the corner that has been all over the news recently, however, you were hoping to rush in and watch the beginning of the ‘Dallas’ marathon playing on TVLand.

Due to your lack of attention, though, he now has you at his will.

As circumstance would have it, I just happen to be out for my nightly stress ride and happen upon you two as he is about to take you into your house for a little tortuous ‘one on one’.

The killer’s car I do recognize as a part of that news broadcast from earlier and I can observe that he is the man that police have murder warrants on.

Altruistic dude that I am, I use the shadows to my advantage and put the tiny red dot of my Glock’s laser site on the back of his head as he is commanding you to unlock your front door.

I check my watch, it’s 8:55 pm and Brooklyn’s pizzeria closes in five minutes and I’m sure hungry for some pasta Alfredo.

What ever should I do?


Nah.

Not even friendly conversation, coffee, how about a hug?

No it does not, but a valiant attempt at skewing the facts to construct your strawman.

We all put a portion of our money into the big pot and, as one facet of responsibility, the government regulates the money where it is needed in order to help the disadvantaged and handicapped do what is needed to help themselves. Along with those who volunteer their playstation time in order to help with such activities.

I will grant you it is not a perfect system, based on relative political views. However, it is a necessary one and has helped communities thrive.

No, it is not.

But it will exist as long as there are more takers than givers.


So my system of morality based on altruism is virtuous, but altruism is not a virtue?!

You’re losing me, rapidly.

Sabine Grant

Beyelzu.... everyone will need validation at some point of time in their life. Thoughts, actions and mostly feelings. Someone who experiences grief needs to see validation of the authenticity of his feelings. Same with anger. It has nothing to do with self estime.
Your recieve validation thru your pay check that your work is productive and you can be employed.

Imagine the validation for a homeless guy with a sign " I will work for food" and you give him a job. That is called VALIDATION. And how do we validate one another? By interacting in a positive way, by aknowledging the other human being and embracing both his weaknesses and strengths.

Self estime is about not being affected by the negativity of others. But we ought to be affected and enhanced by their positiveness.

We are validated shortly after we are born by the first hands who touch our bodies to provide care. We are validated as we die by the last hand who gently holds ours.

There is so much potential around us. And you are part of that potential the minute you smile at someone. The minute you hugged or were hugged.......

It is OK to break down once in a while and allow others to come to the rescue. It is Ok to be human. It is good and well to be human.