Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Henrietta · 01-19-2002, 09:09 AM

"Religious Right organizations in the United States are continuing their drive to link arms with fundamentalist Muslims and other faith groups to advocate internationally for "pro-family" positions on education, reproductive rights, population control and individual freedom."

This paragraph from the Americans United website got me to thinking. What would happen if Christians and Muslims joined forces or sort of merged into a new religion. The two groups together would have the potential of becoming enormous. If you think of this in light of what's discussed on the Oh Gods! thread about how religions are evolving like crazy it seems possible that at least the fundamentalist arms of these two religions could spawn a new religion. They are both after the same sorts of control and merging of church and state to form theocracies. The two together might have wordwide appeal and cause worldwide problems for the rest of us. New religions form every day. Do you think this is a possibility. What would happen. GWB could be their new messiah.

-DM- · 01-19-2002, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Henrietta:
... it seems possible that at least the fundamentalist arms of these two religions could spawn a new religion.

It seems to me that it would have to be the liberal branches of the two religions if there were to be any getting together. The fundamentalist branches could not likely get together since they are both "the one and only true religion."

--Don--

01-19-2002, 09:48 AM

Before the 1994 International Conference on population and Development (held in Cairo) the Vatican joined forces with a number of islamic states (notably Iran) in an anti-choice, anti-feminist alliance.

01-19-2002, 09:50 AM

It's also worth mentioning that although both groups consider the other to be misguided, they prefer them to atheists, who are the real enemy.

Henrietta · 01-19-2002, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Morgan:


It seems to me that it would have to be the liberal branches of the two religions if there were to be any getting together. The fundamentalist branches could not likely get together since they are both "the one and only true religion."

--Don--

It seems that way on the surface but I'm not sure it would work out that way in reality. The liberal wings have little incentive to merge since they tend to be able to live and let live. They can work together on an event without being offended that everyone doesn't believe the same thing. And they are not interested in gaining the power to control everyone.

For an example of fundamentalist christianity merging with other religions look at what happens when evangelicals go to Africa or South America to convert people. Christianity ends up getting merged with the local religions to form strange new versions. I'm not saying conservative muslims and christians will merge but they do have some incentives in their desire for control. They really have a lot in common if you look at it. The main stumbling block seems to be how to consider prophets and messiahs. But on social issues are they really that far apart?

Henrietta · 01-19-2002, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DMB:
It's also worth mentioning that although both groups consider the other to be misguided, they prefer them to atheists, who are the real enemy.

We're really seeing this in all the post 911 stuff and in Bush's new procalmation about freedom of religion.

Monkeybot · 01-20-2002, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DMB:
It's also worth mentioning that although both groups consider the other to be misguided, they prefer them to atheists, who are the real enemy.

Actually it wouldn't surprise me if that were expanded to include "atheists and Jews."

Just a thought.

Henrietta · 01-20-2002, 07:41 AM

Fundamentalist christians have a really weird relationship with Jews.

-DM- · 01-20-2002, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Henrietta:
... The liberal wings have little incentive to merge since they tend to be able to live and let live. They can work together on an event without being offended that everyone doesn't believe the same thing. And they are not interested in gaining the power to control everyone.

Good points. Probably true (IMO).

Quote:

For an example of fundamentalist christianity merging with other religions look at what happens when evangelicals go to Africa or South America to convert people.

So, you consider the Africans and South Americans who are the object of conversion to have been fundamentalists? (I don't)

Quote:

Christianity ends up getting merged with the local religions to form strange new versions.

True, but it doesn't seem to me as if this is an example of fundamentalists of one religion working with fundamentalists of another religion in anything like what you originally suggested, i.e., fundamentalist Muslims working with fundamentalist Christians -- an amalgamation which seems quite unlikely to me given the "one true religion" aspect of the thinking on both sides of that fence as well as the fundamentalist Muslim's "Holy War" against Christianity in general and the U.S. in particular.

---------

All of the following was gathered from previously posted feedback:

Quote:

From Ibn Warraq, author of Why I Am Not A Muslim:

However, to pretend that Islam has nothing to do with Terrorist Tuesday is to wilfully ignore the obvious and to forever misinterpret events. Without Islam the long-term strategy and individual acts of violence by Usama bin Laden and his followers make little sense.

Jihad is "a religious war with those who are unbelievers in the mission of the Prophet Muhammad [the Prophet]. It is an incumbent religious duty, established in the Qur�an and in the Traditions as a divine institution, and enjoined specially for the purpose of advancing Islam and repelling evil from Muslims"[1].

We read (IX. 5-6): "Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them";

IV.76: "Those who believe fight in the cause of God";

VIII.39-42: "Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God�s."

Those who die fighting for the only true religion, Islam, will be amply rewarded in the life to come:

IV.74: "Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God�s path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward."

"Ah, but you are confusing Islam with Islamic fundamentalism. The Real Islam has nothing to do with violence," apologists of Islam argue.

There may be moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. There is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism: at most there is a difference of degree but not of kind. All the tenets of Islamic fundamentalism are derived from the Qur�an, the Sunna, and the Hadith--Islamic fundamentalism is a totalitarian construct derived by Muslim jurists from the fundamental and defining texts of Islam.

[for more see: <a href="http://www.secularhumanism.org/wtc.htm" target="_blank">STATEMENT BY IBN WARRAQ ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER ATROCITY</a>]

Quote:

From the <a href="http://www.golshan.com/rationalthinking/index.htm" target="_blank">Rational Thinking</a> website.

Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tell clearly that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q. 3: 85).

It relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5: 11), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28).

It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (Q. 14: 17).

Quran asks the Muslims to strive against the unbelievers with great endeavor (Q. 25: 52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (Q. 66: 9).

It orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193).

Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them (Q. 9: 5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29).

It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter" (Q.5: 34).

The holy Prophet demanded his follower to strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; then after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Q. 47: 4).

As for the disbelievers", it says that for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Q. 22: 9).

Quran prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (Q. 9: 23), (Q. 3: 28).

---------

--Don--

[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Don Morgan ]

Henrietta · 01-20-2002, 09:17 AM

Don, you're right. I didn't mean to imply that it was an example of fundamentalism merging with fundamentalism. I just mean it as an example of the twists and turns that religions sometimes go through, picking up pieces of other belief systems. Agreed that it is unlikely that Islam and Christianity would merge, even the fundamentalist wings but I do get the idea we will see some political cooperation between the two since they do seem to have similar objectives. I guess you could say there is already political cooperation between conservative chirstians and conservative jews. I just think it will be interesting to watch these religions evolving. Have you read that Altantic Montly article 'Oh Gods!'?

01-19-2002, 09:09 AM	#1
Henrietta Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: West USA Posts: 380	Muslims and Christians Unite "Religious Right organizations in the United States are continuing their drive to link arms with fundamentalist Muslims and other faith groups to advocate internationally for "pro-family" positions on education, reproductive rights, population control and individual freedom." This paragraph from the Americans United website got me to thinking. What would happen if Christians and Muslims joined forces or sort of merged into a new religion. The two groups together would have the potential of becoming enormous. If you think of this in light of what's discussed on the Oh Gods! thread about how religions are evolving like crazy it seems possible that at least the fundamentalist arms of these two religions could spawn a new religion. They are both after the same sorts of control and merging of church and state to form theocracies. The two together might have wordwide appeal and cause worldwide problems for the rest of us. New religions form every day. Do you think this is a possibility. What would happen. GWB could be their new messiah.

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01-19-2002, 09:48 AM	#3
DMB Guest Posts: n/a	Before the 1994 International Conference on population and Development (held in Cairo) the Vatican joined forces with a number of islamic states (notably Iran) in an anti-choice, anti-feminist alliance.

01-19-2002, 09:50 AM	#4
DMB Guest Posts: n/a	It's also worth mentioning that although both groups consider the other to be misguided, they prefer them to atheists, who are the real enemy.

01-20-2002, 07:41 AM	#8
Henrietta Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: West USA Posts: 380	Fundamentalist christians have a really weird relationship with Jews.

01-20-2002, 09:17 AM	#10
Henrietta Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: West USA Posts: 380	Don, you're right. I didn't mean to imply that it was an example of fundamentalism merging with fundamentalism. I just mean it as an example of the twists and turns that religions sometimes go through, picking up pieces of other belief systems. Agreed that it is unlikely that Islam and Christianity would merge, even the fundamentalist wings but I do get the idea we will see some political cooperation between the two since they do seem to have similar objectives. I guess you could say there is already political cooperation between conservative chirstians and conservative jews. I just think it will be interesting to watch these religions evolving. Have you read that Altantic Montly article 'Oh Gods!'?

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