Bill Snedden

You seem to be assuming that only "bad" people end up in hell. According to Orthodox Christianity, that's not at all the case.

Our definitions of "good" and "bad" have nothing whatsoever to with salvation, which is conferred only by the grace of God and by no act of man.

As Seebs so eloquently pointed out, we're all sinners...

But you forget: if Dahmer accepted Christ in the nanosecond before he died, he's in heaven. Whereas Mohandas Gandhi and a host of other "good" nonbelievers are roasting in the eternal barbecue.

Going to heaven is no guarantee that one's company will be limited solely to those whose behavior we mere mortals might characterize as "good". That term is clearly irrelevant to the Christian God...

Regards,

Bill Snedden
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"There is no god higher than truth." Mohandas Gandhi

Bill Snedden

Oooh! I knew about Augustine's opinion, but I had not seen the Tertullian quote. Thanks! I'll need to add that to my list!

Regards,

Bill Snedden
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"The alleged short-cut to knowledge, which is faith, is only a short circuit destroying the mind." Ayn Rand

thebeave

OK, seebs, if you say so. Tell me, oh Carnac the Magnficent, what indeed have I done that makes me a sinner? And how is it that you know?

seebs

You have, at some point in your life, been less than perfectly righteous in all things. How do I know? Experience. To claim otherwise is, as they say, to make an extraordinary claim, and I'd need to see some pretty convincing evidence.

Radorth

Bill, you are one of the few people here who I find a rational, fair and intimidatingly intelligent debater. (You and a lady named Aimee, I believe her user name is) Nevertheless the lowly Radorth will undertake to argue with the above statement.

Which of the above do you think is more likely to convert, assuming that "Blessed are those who hunger ad thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled." ? I doubt you believe in an afterlife, but who might Jesus take some action to save, appear to in the death moment, or offer salvation to?

If you have a mind to, we can talk about why Christianity is the only "religion" which can save any person, by arbitrarily imputiing righteousness to them. Obviously if a person lives on they will have a very real faith.

Rad

Amos

Are you not rushing to the conclusion here seebs because if the Law was given to Moses for the conviction of sin, the law must also be part of our belief system before it can convict us of sin.

Further, if the cross of eternal salvation is for sinners only it would follow that the purpose of the law is the conviction of sin so salvation can come about. If then, non believers do not accept this scheme of Moses would they not be relieved from the obligation to follow the law and therefore cannot be convicted by the law. This also means that we are not judge others who may or may not follow the law because 'we' follow the law so it will convict 'us' instead of others.

If all goes well for those who follow the law they will be saved by the law from the law (according to the inspiration of Moses). They will be set free from the law because it will have served its purpose. Hence, he who is in Christ cannot sin (1Jn3:9 and others).

LuckyCharm

That's true. But, although we may not pronounce eternal damnation/salvation upon any soul (I was using those as examples -- who knows, but they might not be in heaven right now?), I still maintain that we will "know them by their fruits," at least in a general sense.

Really? Where do you read that? My Bible says that a lot of people who say "Lord, Lord..." will be rebuffed with, "I never knew you."

How so?

~~Cheryl

Bill Snedden

Why would that necessarily be so? "Their fruits", as you put it, are irrelevant to the question of salvation. Someone who accepts Christ in the moments before death won't have any visible "fruits", but they are saved nontheless, no?

Exactly! The people we may think are saved, indeed, even those who may consider themselves saved, are not guaranteed of salvation. None are. Salvation is available only through God's grace.

Did you perhaps mean to deny the efficacy of deathbed conversions?

Because "good", defined by humans, has nothing necessarily to do with the will of God, which is, for Christians, the only true meaning of "good."

For example, most humans would certainly not classify the massacre of hundreds of men, women, & children as "good". However, if God commanded it, it could be nothing but "good" (cf. the slaughter of the Amelekites).

Killing, slavery, torture, and suffering are "bad" only on human terms. If God commanded you to kill your son (cf. Abraham), it would be "bad" not to do it, no?

His will, not thy will, be done, right?

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Bill Snedden

Aw, shucks!

Why, I have no idea. I'm certainly not god; if I were, things would be a lot different around here, I can tell you that!

How can I possibly know that Dahmer wasn't some sort of avenging angel, sent by God to punish the wicked? Or, perhaps he was sent as a test of some sort. At any rate, I certainly don't know what was in Mr. Dahmer's heart; only God can know that, right?

If Jesus is going to "appear...in the death moment" to save the righteous, why the importance of believing at all? You seem to suggest that it is righteousness that impels God to offer "last chances" for salvation, but this clearly conflicts with Christian doctrine.

Hmmm. Didn't St. Paul say that faith was "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen?" I should think that the saints in heaven should have little use for faith. At least insofar as we understand or use the term.

I'm not sure what you mean by "arbitrarily imputing righteousness." It would seem to me that doing anything "arbitrarily" robs it of any possible meaning.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Debbie T

Funny I was taught by Christians that this passage was about those who spend their life as Christians.

But then what you are saying is in contradiction to the bible that says if you accept Jesus and ask forgiveness you will be saved. So if Dahmer, or Bundy (who I heard he was saved) did this according to your bible they will go to heaven. Or don't you believe what your bible says?

Obviously other Christians believe they have a chance otherwise why do they go into the jailhouses to preach to them?