Steven Carr

Bede writes :-

'Steven talks about plagiarism which is silly in the cultural context while you seem to be insisting on no dependence at all.

In fact, the situation is almost certainly as Shakespeare is to us. If I say this argument is all Greek to me, I'm quoting from Julius Caesar but most probably wouldn't know it. We have huge numbers of Shakespearisms in our speech we unconsciously use when appropriate. We have nearly as many from the KJV. I expect the situation was similar for Greek speaking early Christians/diaspora Jews with the septuagint. They made connections because they really couldn't help.'

This appears to be a lot of assertions and no evidence. Can Bede produce examples to back up the claim that Greek speaking early Christians/diaspora Jews (eg Josephus, Philo) unconsciously used phrases from the Septuagint? That is, used in a similar manner to the ones I show in my web page <a href="http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/mirc1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/mirc1.htm</a>

I know Josephus, Paul etc quote the Septuagint, but can Bede produce examples showing that they could not help but produce similar 'coincidences' as in my web page.

Boro Nut

That's a lie. He just admitted he knew all along.

Tercel

Steven,
I can't say I fully follow your argument.
You seem to be trying to establish that the NT authors consciously used vocabularly or parallels from the OT. Bede and King Arthur seem to dispute this, but lets say for the sake of argument that you had completely and utterly convinced me that this was true. What then?

How is the idea that the NT authors made up stories out of whole cloth based on the OT stories a likely idea?
Isn't it just as likely, that the NT authors already having these stories noticed the OT parallels and deliberately copied the OT style as a literary device to remind the reader about the parallel and hence to present Jesus as the fulfiller of the OT.

Alternatively, the NT writers (or a later redactor) might have consciously tried to imiate the OT to give their writings the same scriptural weight as the OT had. ie By writing about religious matters using traditional religious language they would suggest to their readers that the writing and what was in it was part of a continuing tradition.


Thus even given your rather doubtful premise of conscious and deliberate dependence, I fail to see how your argument substantiates your conclusions. As a liberal Christian I see nothing whatsoever wrong with the idea that the NT writers might have fiddled with their facts or wording just a little to present Jesus as the prophesy fulfiller and give their works the gravity of the Scriptures. Even a fundamentalist would surely not be troubled by the idea that the NT writers are simply alluding to parallels and fulfilled prophesies in the OT.
So even if you utterly win your argument with Bede and King Arthur, I still can't see that you have a case.

Steven Carr

Hard to put an exact figure on the probability.

I think it is very nearly as likely as the idea that the writers of the Infancy Gospels made up stories, and more likely than somebody feeding 5,000 people with 5 loaves of bread......

Very likely. After all, that is exactly what Joseph Smith did when he used the language of the KJV to write the Book of Mormon.


Exactly.

I also have no problem with the idea that the NT writers fiddled with the facts. Perhaps Bede has no problem as well.

But I am still interested in finding examples from other writers which leand support to Bede's idea.

King Arthur

I don't dispute this and I don't think Bede did.

What I dispute is Steven's erroneous assertions that in his examples he (or someone) has found evidence that the Gospel writters used the stories in the Septuagint and retold them as stories about Jesus (bits of similar language seemingly being the key to this discovery). I think that in his examples he has only found relatively common language of the Jews and usages similar to what Bede said about Shakespeare.

nogods4me

OK, lemme see if I get this; Steven is saying that the Gospels relationship to the Septaguint is similar to West Side Story's relationship to Romeo and Juliet. That the Gospels are retellings of the older tales with some plot and name changes. Is that about right?

King Arthur

I would say so, yes, though perhaps not quite as extreme. But perhaps he will clarify.

l-bow

Tercel,

What if told you I strongly suspect that many of the events in the gospels were derived from the OT? That the writers assumed Jesus was the messaih and went and scoured the OT for verses pertaining to the messiah?

[ July 25, 2002: Message edited by: l-bow ]

[ July 25, 2002: Message edited by: l-bow ]</p>

godfry n. glad

Steven Carr did write:

Josephus...a diaspora Jew? I was under the impression that Josephus was born and raised in Jerusalem; the son of one of the Temple priests.

Is that wrong?

godfry n. glad

Steven Carr

No, but after 70 AD, he had to leave Jerusalem.

KA writes that my examples illustrate 'relatively common language of the Jews'.

Can he or Bede come up with these relatively common examples from other Jewish authors , paralleling the examples of plagiarism I show in my web page?

Just a few. After all, they are relatively common.