Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Perchance · 10-15-2002, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brighid:
The burning to death, torture or other means of murder of another human being for believing or worshipping contrary to any belief is morally wrong. It seems more egregious when SO many people lost their lives, but in reality that is not the case. If the Church had the ability the Nazi's did or even modern day technology during the "Burning Times" I have little doubt the numbers would be in the 10's of millions.

I agree with all of this (that it's wrong, that large numbers aren't worse, and that the Church might have done much worse with modern technology). I think the reason I focus so often on the numbers part is because most people do seem to think that it's really more horrible depending on how many people died, or, sometimes, who died. I've never understood the impulse to think a tragedy is "worse" because fifty people died as opposed to one, or because a child died opposed to an adult. It might make emotional sense in one way, but in another, they are all people- people I think personally "won't pass this way again"- and they all died. The use of numbers in the face of such reality doesn't make me like the people who use it.

Ah, well. Thank you again, brighid.

-Perchance.

brighid · 10-15-2002, 06:35 AM

I think part of the reason so many pagans have a strong emotional attachment to this number is because how the general public reacts to different numbers. 9 million women, men and children burned by the Church certainly beg for attention in a way 9,000 or 100,000 doesn�t. It is because we, as a society had become desensitized to thousands of people dieing in one fell swoop or because the incident seems so far removed because of time, place and culture that small numbers are ignored or trivialized. The Holocaust of WWII is really the only mass extermination most Westerners relate to and 100,000 witches, who already have a dubious and hated reputation (albeit an erroneous one) in the minds of most people seems inconsequential in comparison to the 6 million Jews killed in a few years. I think that fact is VERY disturbing. I also think that we haven�t wiped out the sexual prejudice that is at the root of the medieval witch hysteria and this is another reason that the numbers are often exaggerated. Some say big deal � 150, 000 women were murdered and tortured of a few centuries � was it THAT horrible?

It�s horrible when one human being is tortured and murdered, but it�s easy to separate ourselves from one atrocity unless there is something that emotionally connects us to the victim and or event. Sadly, 9 million burned is a more compelling number that will draw more people to pay attention to what happened and unfortunately continues to happen to women and children all over the world.

I know the Church has always attempted to downplay and rewrite this time period in order to make the past look less vile, and this number is sort of a tug of war in order to disallow that time to be lost to the Catholic revisionist. It is truly unfortunate that we don�t have more accurate records or other visual evidence to make a clear and convincing case one way or the other. However, for those people who scuff off or down play the horror of that time I strongly encourage reading the Malleus Maleficarum (as I have many times in the past) and visiting Rothesburg on der Tur (oh my German is bad, along with my memory at this moment.) Sadly, my mothers Catholicism was strengthened by visiting this museum of ancient Church torture� disgusted me to the core �

I am glad I could be of some assistance and all that time I spent reading and researching has come in handy for someone else. You can tell your student that the information comes from an �atheist witch� who is active in Circle and has been approached to form her own group and lead as high priestess

Brighid

stryder2112 · 10-15-2002, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oser:
You might check in "Triumph of the Moon", by Ronald Hutton. I have a vague memory that he analyzed these claims. The numbers he came up with were considerably lower than millions, certainly.

Actually, Ronal Hutton tackled the 9 million myth in The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles. <a href="http://connectionsjournal.com/files/archives/highlights/burningtime.html" target="_blank">Here</a> is an article in a pagan 'zine that discusses the myth. Unfortunately, Perchance ran into some of the pagan fundamentalists (yes, they do exist) that frequent all-to-many online fora.

Some of these fundy pagans will cling to this erroneous number. However, most pagans do not consider it any sort of "holy-writ."

A year or two ago there was an extensive article published online by a history (?) graduate student who also happen to be pagan that went to great lengths to dispell the myth. It was widely read by people in the pagan community and well received. Unfortunately I am unable to find it again....

Stryder

brighid · 10-15-2002, 08:44 AM

Stryder,

Thank you for the excellent article. I, personally agree with the author and from the research that I have done have always believed that the �witch� craze was not about paganism, or even the Craft but a systematic attempt (a successful one at that) to oppress women and anyone who dared dissent during that repressive time. The worst Inquisitions and burnings took place between heavily Protestant and Catholic strongholds. Women who were widowed and bequeathed land and wealth often found themselves victims of the witch accusation and the property would go directly to the church/state. There are men who found themselves accused of such things because a rival desired their end in order to acquire their wealth and property. Dare speak out against the Church and you will find yourself accused of witchcraft � a thing that did not, nor does actually exist. It certainly wasn�t organized in the way Neo-paganism is today even if the local healer or midwife often found herself strapped to a faggot to burn. Modern day �witches� relate to these women and their images because they often find themselves persecuted. I know I was drawn to Wicca because of its strong feminist undercurrent and it�s celebration of the feminine strength and spirit. It was a complete break from what I found repressive and misogynistic within Christianity. I strongly related to the women described in the Malleus, or more so outraged at the diabolical mythical images women were portrayed as. I think most women can relate to that.

In case of the midwife it was a direct way to control a woman�s sexuality, specifically her ability to abort. Here is an excerpt from the Malleus about �witch midwives�

Part I, Question 11: on witch-midwives
Here is set forth the truth concerning four horrible crimes that devils commit against infants, both in the mother's womb and afterwards. And since the devils do these things through the medium of women and not men, this form of homicide is associated rather with women than with men. And the following are the methods by which it is done.
The Canonists [experts in Church law] say that it is witchcraft not only when anyone is unable to perform the carnal act, but also when a woman is prevented from conceiving, or is made to miscarry after she has conceived. A third and fourth method of witchcraft is when that have failed to procure an abortion, and then they either devour the child or offer it to a devil.... Certain witches, against the instinct of human nature and indeed against the nature of all beasts, are in the habit of devouring and eating infant children.

�

It can�t happen again � bull sh*t! It will happen again if we don�t work for the equality and rights of all women, not just in this country but everywhere.

Brighid

stryder2112 · 10-15-2002, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brighid:
The worst Inquisitions and burnings took place between heavily Protestant and Catholic strongholds.

This bears repeating. This represents one of the biggest misconceptions regarding the witch craze(s) in Europe, Neo-Pagan or otherwise. The worst of the burnings were not perpetuated by the Inquisition itself. The worst were often perpetuated by local officials influenced by traveling, professional witch-hunters in these border areas.

The border areas between Protestant and Catholic strongholds were the areas of greastest social upheaval. These lands felt the brunt of the great European religious wars of that era. These were wars of ideology, pure and simple. Even when the 'hot' wars ended, the 'cold' wars continued and subversive thinking was deemed the enemy-within. Strongly analogous to the 1950's in the US, 'subversive' elements were ruthlessly rooted out, but with fire....

Yes, it can happen again.

Stryder

Veil of Fire · 10-15-2002, 01:53 PM

The "Burning Times" should be treated a bit like a Bible story; it's a metaphorical allegory with almost no literal meaning.

What yer SUPPOSED to get from it is that there are people who will use any excuse they can get their hands on to justify killing anyone they want if they can get away with it. It's a cautionary tale about the nature of corruption and power, meant to keep us humble if we ever find ourselves in such a position of power (fat chance).

What fluffy-bunnies GET out of it is that Christians are bad and they kill billions of peaceful Wiccans in fits of pique.

Mecha_Dude · 10-15-2002, 02:39 PM

Maybe they're counting all the cats they killed as witches.

Perchance · 10-15-2002, 03:46 PM

Thanks for the information, everyone. I agree that something like the witch-hunts could easily happen again. It's specific incarnations of it that I doubt (hey, just like god!) I think I've bumped into too many websites that say things like, "In six months, every Pagan, atheist, and Buddhist in the United States will be herded into concentration camps and exterminated. Our sources tell us that these camps will be in Mexico".

I'm very skeptical and cycnical towards conspiracy theories, no matter what side they're coming from.

Veil of Fire: That's an interesting comparison (of the 'Burning Times' to a Bible story). I think I've read a few too many Pagan "bunny bunny heart heart" websites insisting that THEY are always tolerant, it's the nasty Christians who do everything bad, wah wah wah.

Mecha_Dude: Interestingly, I once read that the mass killing of cats throughout much of the Middle Ages was one reason that the plagues were so devastating. With not as many cats to kill the rats, they (and their fleas) could spread more easily.

-Perchance.

Bible Humper · 10-15-2002, 04:11 PM

Excellent strategy on the part of the Pagans, if they could just manage to have this number accepted as fact, just imagine all the political mileage they could get out of it!!!

Liquidrage · 10-15-2002, 05:19 PM

I don't know how many were killed. I don't think there is any way for anyone to know. Too many of the deaths were in small villages with no historical records.

Though I must admit, 1 million wouldn't shock me. Nor would 40,000.

Typically, I so underestimate death tolls its absurd. 2,000 on 9/11 is disgusting. But if that happened in 1903 on some small island in the Pacific, no one would care.
I just heard for the first time today how many were killed when we (the US) took over the Philippines about 100 years ago. An estimated 100,000. And this s the estimate from after we helped them get the Spanish out (which we right before we took it over).
It is estimated that 61 people were killed as a result of World War 2. Russia lost a staggering (estimated) 25 million total.

9 million does sound too big. But when I try to imagine all the little towns and villages the number does add up rather quickly. And as I said, I underestimate because in my day and age numbers like that just don't happen.

[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: Liquidrage ]

10-15-2002, 05:19 PM	#20
Liquidrage Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tallahassee Posts: 1,301	I don't know how many were killed. I don't think there is any way for anyone to know. Too many of the deaths were in small villages with no historical records. Though I must admit, 1 million wouldn't shock me. Nor would 40,000. Typically, I so underestimate death tolls its absurd. 2,000 on 9/11 is disgusting. But if that happened in 1903 on some small island in the Pacific, no one would care. I just heard for the first time today how many were killed when we (the US) took over the Philippines about 100 years ago. An estimated 100,000. And this s the estimate from after we helped them get the Spanish out (which we right before we took it over). It is estimated that 61 people were killed as a result of World War 2. Russia lost a staggering (estimated) 25 million total. 9 million does sound too big. But when I try to imagine all the little towns and villages the number does add up rather quickly. And as I said, I underestimate because in my day and age numbers like that just don't happen. [ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: Liquidrage ]</p>

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10-15-2002, 06:35 AM	#12
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	I think part of the reason so many pagans have a strong emotional attachment to this number is because how the general public reacts to different numbers. 9 million women, men and children burned by the Church certainly beg for attention in a way 9,000 or 100,000 doesn�t. It is because we, as a society had become desensitized to thousands of people dieing in one fell swoop or because the incident seems so far removed because of time, place and culture that small numbers are ignored or trivialized. The Holocaust of WWII is really the only mass extermination most Westerners relate to and 100,000 witches, who already have a dubious and hated reputation (albeit an erroneous one) in the minds of most people seems inconsequential in comparison to the 6 million Jews killed in a few years. I think that fact is VERY disturbing. I also think that we haven�t wiped out the sexual prejudice that is at the root of the medieval witch hysteria and this is another reason that the numbers are often exaggerated. Some say big deal � 150, 000 women were murdered and tortured of a few centuries � was it THAT horrible? It�s horrible when one human being is tortured and murdered, but it�s easy to separate ourselves from one atrocity unless there is something that emotionally connects us to the victim and or event. Sadly, 9 million burned is a more compelling number that will draw more people to pay attention to what happened and unfortunately continues to happen to women and children all over the world. I know the Church has always attempted to downplay and rewrite this time period in order to make the past look less vile, and this number is sort of a tug of war in order to disallow that time to be lost to the Catholic revisionist. It is truly unfortunate that we don�t have more accurate records or other visual evidence to make a clear and convincing case one way or the other. However, for those people who scuff off or down play the horror of that time I strongly encourage reading the Malleus Maleficarum (as I have many times in the past) and visiting Rothesburg on der Tur (oh my German is bad, along with my memory at this moment.) Sadly, my mothers Catholicism was strengthened by visiting this museum of ancient Church torture� disgusted me to the core � I am glad I could be of some assistance and all that time I spent reading and researching has come in handy for someone else. You can tell your student that the information comes from an �atheist witch� who is active in Circle and has been approached to form her own group and lead as high priestess Brighid

10-15-2002, 08:44 AM	#14
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	Stryder, Thank you for the excellent article. I, personally agree with the author and from the research that I have done have always believed that the �witch� craze was not about paganism, or even the Craft but a systematic attempt (a successful one at that) to oppress women and anyone who dared dissent during that repressive time. The worst Inquisitions and burnings took place between heavily Protestant and Catholic strongholds. Women who were widowed and bequeathed land and wealth often found themselves victims of the witch accusation and the property would go directly to the church/state. There are men who found themselves accused of such things because a rival desired their end in order to acquire their wealth and property. Dare speak out against the Church and you will find yourself accused of witchcraft � a thing that did not, nor does actually exist. It certainly wasn�t organized in the way Neo-paganism is today even if the local healer or midwife often found herself strapped to a faggot to burn. Modern day �witches� relate to these women and their images because they often find themselves persecuted. I know I was drawn to Wicca because of its strong feminist undercurrent and it�s celebration of the feminine strength and spirit. It was a complete break from what I found repressive and misogynistic within Christianity. I strongly related to the women described in the Malleus, or more so outraged at the diabolical mythical images women were portrayed as. I think most women can relate to that. In case of the midwife it was a direct way to control a woman�s sexuality, specifically her ability to abort. Here is an excerpt from the Malleus about �witch midwives� Part I, Question 11: on witch-midwives Here is set forth the truth concerning four horrible crimes that devils commit against infants, both in the mother's womb and afterwards. And since the devils do these things through the medium of women and not men, this form of homicide is associated rather with women than with men. And the following are the methods by which it is done. The Canonists [experts in Church law] say that it is witchcraft not only when anyone is unable to perform the carnal act, but also when a woman is prevented from conceiving, or is made to miscarry after she has conceived. A third and fourth method of witchcraft is when that have failed to procure an abortion, and then they either devour the child or offer it to a devil.... Certain witches, against the instinct of human nature and indeed against the nature of all beasts, are in the habit of devouring and eating infant children. � It can�t happen again � bull sh*t! It will happen again if we don�t work for the equality and rights of all women, not just in this country but everywhere. Brighid

10-15-2002, 01:53 PM	#16
Veil of Fire Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 451	The "Burning Times" should be treated a bit like a Bible story; it's a metaphorical allegory with almost no literal meaning. What yer SUPPOSED to get from it is that there are people who will use any excuse they can get their hands on to justify killing anyone they want if they can get away with it. It's a cautionary tale about the nature of corruption and power, meant to keep us humble if we ever find ourselves in such a position of power (fat chance). What fluffy-bunnies GET out of it is that Christians are bad and they kill billions of peaceful Wiccans in fits of pique.

10-15-2002, 02:39 PM	#17
Mecha_Dude Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Everywhere... I'm Watching you... Posts: 1,019	Maybe they're counting all the cats they killed as witches.

10-15-2002, 03:46 PM	#18
Perchance Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,059	Thanks for the information, everyone. I agree that something like the witch-hunts could easily happen again. It's specific incarnations of it that I doubt (hey, just like god!) I think I've bumped into too many websites that say things like, "In six months, every Pagan, atheist, and Buddhist in the United States will be herded into concentration camps and exterminated. Our sources tell us that these camps will be in Mexico". I'm very skeptical and cycnical towards conspiracy theories, no matter what side they're coming from. Veil of Fire: That's an interesting comparison (of the 'Burning Times' to a Bible story). I think I've read a few too many Pagan "bunny bunny heart heart" websites insisting that THEY are always tolerant, it's the nasty Christians who do everything bad, wah wah wah. Mecha_Dude: Interestingly, I once read that the mass killing of cats throughout much of the Middle Ages was one reason that the plagues were so devastating. With not as many cats to kill the rats, they (and their fleas) could spread more easily. -Perchance.

10-15-2002, 04:11 PM	#19
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	Excellent strategy on the part of the Pagans, if they could just manage to have this number accepted as fact, just imagine all the political mileage they could get out of it!!!

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