Tercel

Of course you don't. You have what you consider to be large amounts of evidence, but you are misinterpreting it. Neuroscience and the like (which, based on extensive past experience in discussing this, I'm assuming is what you're thinking of here) proves nothing more than hitting a radio with a hammer and finding it no longer works properly "proves" there are no radio waves.

I find that to be extremely unlikely. Perhaps you have misunderstood what they were saying.

Yes.

Woman

Magnus:Your own statement pretty much sums it up.

I feel for you. You are a brand new Christian. You want to believe and you do believe. In your enthusiasm you want to witness. Now comes the problem. There just isn't any proof outside of "faith."

I guess I would ask you this: What was it that made you a believer? Who changed your mind? How did they do it? What arguments did they use that convinced you?

If the answers to these questions aren't convincing to other sceptics, why did they convince you?

As you are learning by questioning other believers, much of what you've been told is not true. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John didn't write the Gospels. There is no historical or archeological proof of Christ's divinity. I know this is hard to accept, but before you take on well educated non-believers, you need to educate yourself AND to figure out just why you believe what you do. I wish you luck, but you have your work cut out for you.

everlastingtongue

Woman,

This is the most eloquent post I’ve seen since I have been lurking here. No hint of hate or disdain but devastatingly honest and effective.

Violent Messiah

All threads in this forum seem to divert to the general argument of the existence of God...am I relieved that Gooch's dad took all the discussions involving biblical criticisms, Jesus' prophecies and other floating arguments and placed it somewhere else.

I'm bored of replying to threads that are 3 and above pages long only to discover that its wandering of the topic.

Newei, to the matter at hand....

Your posts are trying to reduce the teleological argument into a silly assumption. I just responded by making them look silly as well. From your own words, you consider your points "silly responses".

Curious, so you are saying that something did come from something - inevitably boiling down to the fact that there always has been something?

And don't be mad at people who argue their "something came from nothing" from other people's "something came from nothing", because that is the whole essence of this message board.

diana

Nice approach, Woman. Good question.

Tercel...

I'm curious to hear more about your simple god. I've never heard this approach before. Please expand.

d

Wyz_sub10

Like what? Seriously. Are you referring to OT prophecies? What evidence are you thinking about it terms of proving Jesus' identity?

I never said Christians were insane.

But your own logic reveals the weakness of your position. Are you saying 4 billion non-Chrisitians are unreasonable and insane? I don't think so, either. Maybe they just have a clearer mind re: it.

What about 700 million Hindus? Maybe they're more open-minded? If we play the numbers game, we can point to the fact that 4 of the top 10 nations in the world (in terms of population) are Islamic, and a 5th (India) has millions of Muslims. Are we to conclude that 40% of the worlds largest nations are insane? (In case you're wondering, only 2 (maybe 3) countries are decidedly Christian)

Maybe there's a better reason you do not understand completely. Maybe it's because many of the messages in Christianity are contradictory. You can have faith that this only appears to be so, and that you are too "inferior" to understand.

That's an understatement. What's a "seemingly good" life? Hell, in the Christian belief, is beyond harsh. It is punishment beyond anything sensible, and totally incompatible with a loving god. I've been told many times "you may not love god, but god loves you." Apparently love is shown through eternal torment and damnation. Go figure.

Are you similarly satisfied with such answers in your life? If you are told by someone smarter to give then $10,000 because it's the right thing, will you do so without question? The problem here is that you begin with the idea that god exists and everything he does is "right". Morality, judgement, rationale all become subsequently meaningless. What's more, you have divested yourself of any accountability for rationale. You can believe sinners are going to hell, and while that may seem abhorrent to you, hey, it's not your call, right? And after all, god knows best, so... In essence, you can be perfecty happy with the thought of people going to hell, because it is god's judgement, and god always does what is right and good.

How do you know you're not misunderstanding god's ways in everything you do? If you admit that you cannot comprehend (and what's more, this does not really matter anyway) then how can you be sure of anything?

Another poster commented that rationale and reason do not attest to god's existence. Yet, they were completely comfortable in "assuring" me that god would never want them to commit genocide or engage in promiscuous sex. Why? How could you possibly be so sure?

If you don't understand it, how can you trust it? If it is not fully comprehensible, how do you even know who god is or what he meant when he said what he did?

This is a panacea apology - "I can't know anything, but I know what counts. When I cannot explain something, I chalk it up to necessary ignorance."

In other words, you "know" just enough to keep you comfortable in your beliefs - to give you security in life.

It reeks of self-loathing, not humility.

Magus55

Iv'e yet to find a contradiction in the Bible that can't be explained, there are no contradictions in the Bible, only condractions in the interpretations. So no thats not it.

Well until you understand the concept of Sin and holiness, no answer will ever satisfy you. God does love everyone, if he didn't you'd be in Hell right now and he would have never sent Jesus to earth to pay your debt. He is giving you plenty of chances right now but all you can do is fight over his methods and whether he exists or not. You will have no excuse when you stand before him at Judgement.



Comparing a human who is smarter than me in relation to us God don't work. Humans are corrupt, God isn't. Since God's knowledge compared to ours is like Einstein to bacteria, you can't even put them in the same category. If i was happy with the idea that people were going to Hell, do you seriously think i'd be on these boards, trying to witness to people who apparently don't even care? Christians witness to non-believers all the time because they DON'T want you to go to Hell, but in the end after life is over, if people still harden their heart too much to accept what we say, then it was their choice. Hence why you can't blame God for Hell, you reject him, you fight over whether he exists and whether his methods meet up to your standards ( instead of seeing if your standards meet up to his, which they never can do) and think its sick that God lets you go where you want to. You are living in Sin right now, Mother Theresa wasn't even a good person by God's standards, you will NEVER be a good enough person on Earth to please God and save yourself from punishment, NEVER. Hence why there is Jesus. If you reject him, its you saying forget you, i like living in Sin and holding on to the pleasures of Earth - i will never humble myself to you. Thats why people go to Hell, they want to go there whether they conciously believe it or not.



Because most things in the Bible we understand. The Bible and Christianity are God's ways of reaching us, some things like how God could create the universe in 6 days we can't understand because we don't possess that kind of knowledge.



Just because someone couldn't teach back the theory of Relativity doesn't mean they don't understand the major and important concepts.

Mageth

Iv'e yet to find a contradiction in the Bible that can't be explained, there are no contradictions in the Bible, only condractions in the interpretations. So no thats not it.

So which is it, are there contradictions in the bible or not? (your statement is contradictory itself).

(Hint: a "contradiction that can be explained" is still a contradiction, it's just a contradiction with a (typically ad hoc and extra-biblical) explanation, e.g. the different, contradictory accounts of Judas' suicide).

Magus55

Contradictory in terms of how different denominations choose to interpret it.

For example, Catholics believe that the passages in the Bible about Baptism make it a requirement, yet most Christians don't, it doesn't say its a requirement but Catholics choose to make it that way.

Wyz_sub10

Apart from the fact that there *are* indeed contradictions in the bible, let's go back to your comment about finite understanding.

How can you "explain" the contradictions of god if you acknowlegde that his will is beyond your understanding? You admitted that hell seemed harsh for good people, but you do not find that contradictory to god's message of love - only that it is beyond your understanding. This is hardly an explanation of anything.

You presume two things - 1) I do not understand sin and holiness (how do you know?) and 2) no answer will ever satisfy me.

Try me?

Nonsense. If he doesn't want me to be in hell, he can make sure I never go. If I refuse Jesus, then he absolutely does want me to go to hell, or hell wouldn't be there in the first place, would it?

What chances are you referring to? How do you know what I encounter in my life to assess what chances are being given? You are making assumptions again (third one so far). FYI, I was a devout Christian for 25 years. I believed wholeheartedly. There is no validity in your assumption that I never persued what you would call a "chance".

What if my excuse was that I honestly and truly did not believe, despite 25 years of my best efforts? What's wrong with honesty and sincerity?

I already know your response - they weren't my best efforts or I wasn't patient enough or I heard him but ignored him.

Well, you'd be wrong on all counts. He doesn't exist. God is a myth and the bible is full of interesting stories, like the Koran or my high school Greek Mythology text.

How do you know that? You cannot fully comprehend god, by your own admission. We are back to square one - the *only* thing you can comprehend is that god is worthy of your unwavering trust? How convenient. Why is this comprehensible when much else is not? What makes this fact different from all the facts (i.e. hell for good people) that you cannot comprehend?

What makes you think that this comparison is any better than the one I provided? For the record, I wouldn't give Einstein $10,000 if he asked for it either.

I fail to understand what you're not happy about. Are you saying god is doing the wrong thing by sending people to hell? It sounds like you don't agree with the setup.

BTW, these people care, all right, or they wouldn't be here either. They just don't think god exists.

I appreciate that you don't want me to be tormented eternally. Just so you know, I don't want you to be tormented eternally either. But I have no reason to believe you will be. If there is an all-intelligent god, s/he will understand your human weaknesses and your hard-wired need for empirical evidence (seeing as s/he hard-wired your brain in the first place).

Really? Why does hell exist?

I don't reject him or question his methods, because he doesn't exist. But I do question Christian teachings, which I think perpetuate hatred and divisiveness.

In the end, I think Christians fight for their own defense and acceptance in forums this this, not for god's.

If hell exists, I don't want to go there. Sounds awful. What makes you think that's what I want?

"Ah, but it must be what you want," you'll say, "because I know the rules and am not following them."

These are your arbitrary rules, stacked up against dozens of other cultures and civilizations, each with their own arbitrary rules.

If god exists, he's done a piss-poor job or communicating, hasn't he?

No I'm not. I suppose I am if you define "sin" by your religion's arbitrary rules. But if I wasn't living in sin by your definition, I'd be living in sin by someone else's.

How about I just live in such a way that demonstrates care, love and compassion for my fellow man? Isn't that a good way to live?


Then who is?

Pardon the language but - then what's the fucking point? If I can never be good enough, no matter how hard I try, why try? Why put me here and tell me to do good if it will never matter anyway?

So being good is useless and meaningless in the eyes of god because it can never be enough. Ergo, being evil is of no consequence because the evil man will suffer the same fate as the good man.

"Hence" what? You haven't told me what Jesus's existence has to do with me being good or not? (Just a heads up - I know the story. I'm just saying your reasoning presented here doesn't flow)

Why??? Why is it like that? I don't believe god exists, so I'm not saying forget anything. I just don't believe in the stories I've heard because 1) I have no reason to believe, 2) I have seen nothing to differentiate the validity of those stories from any others I have heard.

Plus, I'm pretty sure if god exists, he knows I'm beneath him. What's more, I doubt an all-powerful being needs an ego boost from my humility.

Oh I know, we can't comprehend "why" this is required. Just shut up and do what you're told, right?

So god tortures you for eternity because of an unconscious choice you might make? That sounds more like evil than good.

Most of the OT consists of histories and stories of war. Yes, they are understandable. What is not understandable is the rationale. That is where you defer to "necessary ignorance". Sorry, this isn't a good enough answer. You could be listening to satan all this time and never know it.

So god can't tell us or he won't? Again, it's claiming ignorance for anything that contradicts our current understanding.

We possess "the kind of knowledge" that tells us the earth formed 6 billion years ago, over millions and millions of years.

Ad hoc Christian response: "no we don't"

Yes we do, here's the proof.

Ad hoc Christian response: "it's a test of faith" or "it's the work of satan" or "the proof is faulty".

We have all these abilities to measure, test, learn and discover. These, in your view, are attributes given to us by god. Yet once these attributes provide conflict with the bible, the attributes are faulty or the meanings have changed. Or the bible is being missinterpreted. Do you see a circular problem here?

But if you can't teach back the theory of relativity, how the hell do you expect me to learn it? Maybe you shouldn't be teaching if you don't undertsand the theory.

If you can't even explain it, how do you expect me to embrace it?

No, you want me to surrender objectivity and rational thought and embrace the idea of god. This is not a reasonable request, and a just being would not impose an eternal penalty of horror for those failing to do so.

If you disagree, then answer this - what crime could your son/daughter/father/mother commit where you think a suitable punshiment would be torturing them endlessly with no chance for reprieve?