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SOMMS:

I would still like to know why you believe your personal evidence is any more compelling than that of others. Certainly Heaven's Gate, the Branch Davidians, and the 9/11 hijackers demonstrated a firm belief in their own personal evidence.

Do you believe that it is reasonable for me to entertain the idea that there was a spaceship behind Hale-Bopp collecting the souls of those who killed themselves for a ride? After all, they had personal evidence convincing them of this fact. It's possible I just wasn't open to the truth. Please explain why I should seek out this spaceship with an open mind.

phlebas

You're getting quite good at ignoring the tougher points in my posts

I am sorry. This was certainly not intended. This may, however, simply be because I agree with you.

Well, I doubt you agree with all of it, but not to worry I'm starting to feel like we're both repeating ourselves here, though.

Again, if I have missed some of your tougher points it was unintentional. Please let me know which ones you wish to discuss.

The main relevant one you missed, unless I missed your response, was God's silence when I *did* believe in him and *did* want to find him.

Even if I accept that God would hide from my atheist self now (although that still makes no sense either -- what better way to cure my atheism than showing himself), I don't understand why he would have left a confused teenager on his own.

SOMMS:How is it a stretch? It is a legitimate question. How would you know if God was 'calling you back'?

Ummm... I would hear some sort of ringing?

Ok. Now we are getting somewhere. Relative to your phone metaphore what could that be?

I have no idea. You would think an all-knowing and all-powerful God would be able to give me a sign I would recognize.

[suggestion]It could be a conversation you might have in web forum.[/suggestion]

Could be. If so, I haven't had that conversation yet I've had hundreds of religious conversations online, and not only do I remain unconviced, but I feel like I have heard most of the arguments now.

We're not talking about a friend calling when your stereo is up too loud. This is an allegedly infinitely powerful being who has decided to answer my prayers 20 years after the fact.

...or he's been responding for 20 years and because of your attitude you haven't been listening or haven't been able to hear.

My "attitude" is what it is in no small part because there was no return call. I wasn't an atheist when I started searching for God -- I only became one when I couldn't find him.

How is that my fault?

First, I'm not expecting you to do anything. You sound pretty set in your ways and, frankly, in all probability you will disregard all ideas of seeking God...posed by God, me or anybody else.
Unfortunately, this is exactly my point.

Maybe so. Like I said, I am done begging God for his attention. If he wants mine, he is welcome to come get it.

Nothing I have heard in the last 20 years makes me think there is anyone listening. And your point here seems to boil down to "you will believe in god once you begin to believe in god."

While this is technically true, I'm sure, it isn't exactly persuasive. And it's useless as proof, because the same argument can be used to "prove" the existence of aliens, elves, Zeus, or ESP.

Second, I'm not asking you to 'make move after move'. I'm simply saying that if God does exist then our revelation/relationship with him is determined by our attitude.

And I'm saying that if that is true, then God is pretty powerless indeed. My attitude is centered around a lack of evidence for God's existence. That tells me that (assuming there is a God at all) he is either incapable of showing himself to skeptics (which doesn't sound particularly powerful) or he is uninterested in doing so (which, considering the alternative is Hell, makes this God of Love seem somehow misnamed).

I'm not sure how your attitude was at some point in the past, but it is pretty obvious what your attitude is right now.

I've told you what my attitude was in the past. You can assume I'm lying if that helps hold your syllogism together.

My attitude now is one of wanting to know what the truth is. At the moment, I've no reason to think the truth points at anything but a lack of Gods. I am capable of changing my mind upon receiving new information. Haven't seen any in a long time, though.

Would you agree that IF God did exist and our attitude towards him matters THEN your attitude my be hampering any evidence/revelation of him?

If there is a God who is too weak to prove his existence to an atheist, then I agree that my atheism makes it impossible for God to prove himself to me.

1. If A, then B.
2. A
3. Therefore, B

That said, I wonder why such a limited God is one you find worthy of worship. The God you describe sounds as powerful as the tooth fairy.

SOMMS:What if God has been trying to get in touch with you but your attitude towards God disallows it?

YOU:Then he's still an embarrassment as a deity.

Why? Because you refuse to listen?

Because he is incapable of (or unwilling to) making himself heard. Since the price of my disbelief is torment unending, I don't know why God doesn't appear in the sky every morning to lead us in wake-up exercises and brew us all some coffee.

ELECTROGOD

Strange that you as a pitiful sinner can tell us "god's" perspective. Actually, if it did come out of hiding it could get a chess partner out of it...probably a whole lot of them. I know how to play chess. It may beat me all the time like the computer does but I understand the game (chess was invented by humans). But it can't get a chess partner out of it as long as it is in hiding.

Hey, I got a secret that you should be interested in too. Kiss Hank's ass and he will give you $1,000,000!
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/church_of_hank/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/church_of_hank/</a>

Goliath

SOMMS,

Neither.

I have no such evidence, and I don't feel that I would have to show such evidence, even if I did have it, because I have never made any claims whatsoever regarding any relation between attitudes towards your god and supposed evidence of your god's alleged existence.

Please, pay attention!

Sincerely,

Goliath

galiel

SOMMS

My Occam's Razor beats your utterly arbitrary and unsupported assertion every time.

The reason not to believe in your invention is that it doesn't work. Since it is utterly arbitrary, as arbitrary as any other assertion that is based on "revelation" and not observation, there is no consequence to not believing it. However, there are real-world consequences to believing it and acting according to its dictates. Historical evidence demonstrates wuite conclusively that such beliefs are harmful to humanity and contrary to our collective interests.

The reason not to believe in a God such as you suggest, or any other, is that, all things being equal, the rational choice is to seek to minimize Type II statistical errors (that is, believing things that aren't true) rather than minimizing Type I errors) that is, disbeliving something that is true). The evident positive consequences of the former far outweigh the theoretical and never-proven consequences of the latter.

It is really quite simple.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Goliath
Well, if that's the way your going to be...I refuse to provide you with my proof.


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

galiel,
?


What doesn't work how?

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Philosoft

I can't help but think that you are posting this for your own benefit. This reads exactly like, "whatever you believe is true will be true for you." Surely your time here has shown you that mystical thinking is not highly thought of. Thus, I have trouble believing you are presenting this as a legitimate rational position. Is this something that helps you cope with the lack of divine evidence?

God really has no one to blame but himself for the existence of those who do not "truly want him."

Biff the unclean

So SOMMS you say that once upon a time you, yourself, were an Atheist.
You also say that there is evidence of a God but it is revelatory and not available to those who lack the proper attitude. And at one time you received this revelation.

This means that you received this revelation either before or after you became a Theist.
If before, then you aren't being honest with us about the importance of attitude.
If after, then you became a Theist for absolutely no reason.

You seem to have created a Catch 22 here. Either you aren't honest or you have lost your reason. Is there a third alternative, I am missing, that is more flattering?

Fiach

SOMMS, revelation in my opinion is of two types. One form of revelation is just an idea that comes to mind and one attributes it to a divine phantasm. The other and most impressive ones are hallucinations. In these, the temporal and frontal lobes complex circuitry produces pulses of depolarisation (that have been measured) resultinng in the person seeing and/or hearing God, Allah, the angel Gabriel, the angel Moroni, Mary the Virgin, Jesus, Brahma, Vishnu, or Dagda.

What determines the content of one's revelation?

1. Indoctination in one's previous life to that point.

2. The particular religion or sect in which one believes.

3. An interaction between 1 and 2 with some strong desire on the part of the one hallucinating. E.G. fear of demons, fear of sexual predators, fear of evil men (Hitler, Saddam, Bin Laden), positive feelings for something like child welfare or health, etc.

Just like dreams, religious hallucinations may serve as a conduit or outlet for subconscious or conscious wants and fears.

Fiach