Thomas Metcalf

Originally posted by FarSeeker:

"One,
"Wizardry posted March 31, 2002 10:39 PM..."

When you can answer my argument (and all the other points I made in my previous post that you utterly failed to address), get back to me. I don't care what Wizardry thinks. You are arguing with me here, not with Wizardry. Otherwise, I could point out that some apologists agree that there is no good reason to believe God exists or that theists have a better moral foundation than atheists, and leave it at that.

"Two:
"These are NOT the acts of a 'few' Atheists, but of several million. And I would think that Red China would be fertile ground for your activities. After all, they are already halfway home: they’ve 'thrown off the shackles of religion.' They should be begging for your intelligent reasoning; after all:"

It was a few atheists who chose to murder people, and again, they did not do it because they were atheists. You have consistently failed to mount a serious response against my arguments, and I am rather disappointed that you chose to post anyway. Am I to take your silence as concession?

David M. Payne

FS can't get over the fact that atheism DOES NOT equal communism, fascism or any other type of authoritarianism political structure. It is just the NON BELIEF OF A GOD (S), PERIOD. Religion on the other hand IS ALWAYS AUTHORITARIAN IN STRUCTURE! Hey, when you have the ultimate authority, God, in charge of religion, how can it be anything else? The problem is that the ultimate authority, God, isn't around (Well doesn’t exist really, but that's another thread.) to wield his authority, so we get all these religious leaders of all the religions happy to step in, pick up the mantle of power, and let us all know God's will, as strained through their brains. And what have we to show for this? War, religious persecution, overpopulation, and a host of other ills brought to us by the religious fanatics who have had control over man for most of our history. Time to move out of the dark ages FS, and stop the repetition of the evil done in the name of God and religion, of which 9/11 is just the latest example. We can keep the good stuff, the charity work, the hospitals etc, but we need to dump the dangerous junk they also give us, and remove the power religions wield over so many people. The only way to do this is through the means you see right here, intellectual persuasion. Having said that, lets throw in a couple of my favorite posts on this thread. Bon Appetite!


Nicely said Oolon, I’ve been waiting for FS to reply. Perhaps he’s left the building.

Zounds! I stand corrected, just before I was going to post this, FS gave us one of his best broadsides, so I’ll use a little (Hal9000) humor this time, as logic and reason have had no effect on him in the past. I’ll have to step carefully around him before he bites me on the leg, poor chap, what a brave knight he is! Here, let me give you one of your legs back to stand on! I applaud you sir, you can operate that smoke and mirrors machine with your teeth! Bravo!
Now, lets see if I have this right; (A) Marxist/Fascists killed millions. (B) Marxism/fascism= Atheism, (C) Therefore atheists killed millions? Spare me FS, Marxist/Fascists killed in the name of the party, the state, for the head of the cult of personality, Hitler, Stalin etc. not in the name of atheism, period. It’s a dumb rant and it doesn’t work any more, get over it.

I do like this though, tarring me with my own brush, (or more correctly Epicurus’s brush) or at least trying to.

FS Man can prevent evil, and either chooses not to or cannot. If he chooses not to, he is an abettor. If he cannot then his nature is not the “basically good” that humanists claim.

Semi-Nice try FS, but man isn’t omnipotent is he? God on the other hand is, if your right about him, isn’t he? So we can’t control the actions of everyone, but God can, can’t he, being omnipotent and all. We do the best we can to control evil, God on the other hand, doesn’t do anything! (Of course I understand why, HE DOESN’T EXIST!) How long do you think this charade of there being a God will last? Giving you your dues, probably a long time, but he will fade from view as he has in the more civilized parts of the world, except here in the US, but 9/11 will have a profound effect on the young coming up in the US I do believe. This is the century we break free of the yolk of religion in America, Bob willing! (A little inside joke FS)

FSCan you site an appropriate excuse for all the evil man has done?

There is no excuse for the evil man has done FS, and even less excuse than that for the evil supposedly done by a perfect being of unlimited power and knowledge, that’s the point.(I say supposedly because he doesn’t exist, in my view remember?)

So you want to go over the same old stuff again. Oolon did a marvelous job of answering your point about God the baby killer, as did Jack before him, as did my essay, and Bill Schultz’s piece “Is God a Criminal” last year and on and on, all the way back to Epicurus, and probably before that. As for your contention that Bob, uh, God gave us free will, well there is no proof of that either, and so I will continue think free will just evolved along with us as a way to react to our world, by being able to make choices as to our survival. Choose well, survive. Choose poorly, die. You use the usual, the biblical quotes you say prove your point. Sorry, don’t think so, but you are welcome to your view. I let the readers read the material in this thread and make up their own minds. Free will baby!

I think this just about raps up this episode of the “Evil God Show.” I hope you enjoyed the show, It’s been around in one form or another for a long-time, couple thousand years or so. But we need to keep bringing it up to remind the head theists that there are plenty of people in on their little game of money and power, God’s just the shill. And being a myth and all, he’s perfect for the job, because he’s always just what you want him to be! I understand their discomfort, we’re after their jobs by golly! Plus we make them look somewhat foolish in the process, believing in myths like some medieval naves! Really!

Well I have to move on, got to find my way out of the fundie forest before nightfall. Pardon me sir FS Knight as I step over you, no disrespect intended, I know you can’t get out of the way, what with all your arms and legs chopped off and all. Oh, I think I found one of FS’s arms over here, ugh, its still moving! And look, its still grasping at straws!

To be continued?

I guess so.

David

David M. Payne

PS Thanks for the PM Aimee, glad you're enjoying the thread.

David

David M. Payne

A while back FS was complaining about how we atheists and agnostics lump all the Abrahamic religions together when it comes to the evil done by this or that religious order. Well FS, you all worship the same God, and all your religions came from the same foundation, the OT. And history shows that you can all be very bloody in the pursuit of your goal of bringing Godly enlightenment to the rest of us. Atheists and agnostics don't have anything remotely resembling this shared purpose and belief, out side of the non-belief in a God and religion, we are very diverse; most good, and some bad. When you are able to see the difference between authoritarian ideology (Communism, Fascism etc) and lack of belief in God, then you will be making some progress.

David

DigitalDruid

First, your wild accusations in your last and previous responses (such as: all atheists in this board are not interested in the truth; accusing me of doing what Orwell predicted(!)) proves nothing other than that you love ranting and raving, since you avoid commenting on the facts and figures I quoted. So my reaction is: physician, heal thyself. You are the one with the affliction of bias and unreason.

>>>If Christianity was the blood-thirsty religion that has been claimed (without objection from you) on this thread, it would have happened much sooner.

How sooner? 100 years sooner ? 500 years sooner? This is a lame attempt to defend christianity. It's like someone punches me and says: "Hey I could have punched you earlier, but I didn't! So don't call me a bad guy!" Similarly, in the context of the crusades, you are in essence saying: ok, crusades were gruesome; but hey, chritianity could not be THAT bad; it could have started the crusades earlier;but it didn't!

>>>>What they got was an uncontrollable rabble.

Ever wonder why? Because the Pope incited all folks (not just the warriors and the knights) with promises of indulgences and condonation of their sins! Lest you launch another of your favorite wild accusations of bias, I would let the catholic encyclopedia speak for me ( <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04543c.htm#I" target="_blank">http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04543c.htm#I</a> ):

"the pope himself addressed the assembled multitudes, exhorting them to go forth and rescue the Holy Sepulchre. Amid wonderful enthusiasm and cries of "God wills it!" all rushed towards the pontiff to pledge themselves by vow to depart for the Holy Land and receive the cross of red material to be worn on the shoulder. At the same time the pope sent letters to all Christian nations, and the movement made rapid headway throughout Europe. Preachers of the crusade appeared everywhere, and on all sides sprang up disorganized, undisciplined, penniless hordes, almost destitute of equipment, who, surging eastward through the valley of the Danube, plundered as they went along and murdered the Jews in the German cities."

The ruler of Byzantium asked for only about 500 well-armed and trained men. But the Pope incited the whole assembly that included mostly laymen. He even wrote letters to chritians far and wide appealing them to join the crusade. The Pope was motivated by the possibility of expanding his influence to Jerusalem. What the Crusades did was make war against non-Christians not only 'just' (in the Ausustenian sense) – but holy –war against the infidels helped the warriors reach paradise!

[edited for typos]

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: DigitalDruid ]</p>

Amen-Moses

I'd just like to point out that the Crusades were not the first crusade. Hell crusades were common all over Europe throughout the dark age period.

For example the Norman conquests were crusades in the sense that they were authorised and blessed by the Roman Catholic church (i.e the pope) and anyone fighting in them were told that their sins were cancelled out. (at least until William turned on the Pope)

Amen-Moses

DigitalDruid

Amen-MOses, thanks for pointing this out. Religion and politics make an explosive mixture. The real tragedy is we seem to have to learn it in every generation - again and again.

David M. Payne

Nicely said DD, that's one wheel we need to stop reinventing.

David

hal9000

Now it's just over 2800 hits on the Clemson web site. Pretty good traffic for a closed thread. I wonder how many hits it gets here?

Peter Edward Faulkner

[ November 02, 2002: Message edited by: Peter Edward Faulkner ]</p>