NOGO

Jesus' second coming

It is a common belief among Christians that Jesus resurected and promised to return at the end of the world to judge people according to their deeds. For thousands of years now people have been reading scriptures trying to predict when this would come.

Jesus did in fact say exactly when that yould take place and here is the evidence.


Matthew 24
Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, ""Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.'' As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, ""Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?''

The story above indicates the following. Jesus was speaking to his discples in private who asked him two questions.
[1] When will the temple be desctroyed and
[2] what will be signs of Jesus' return the end of the world ?
He are Jesus' answers.

Matthew 24 cont...
And Jesus answered and said to them, " See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, "I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains; Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

I stop the answer here to show something and then we will continue. What follows is a passage from Luke where basically the same story is told however Luke has more precise information on what Jesus meant by all this.

Luke 21:20:26
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Note the two similar sentences which appear in both texts.
"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains"
"Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days"
Note also that Luke speaks about "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" and "Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles". This makes the whole text quite clear.
The discples asked Jesus when would the temple be destroyed and Jesus is answering this very question.
The temple and Jerusalem were destroyed by the Romans in the year 70. All this text is refering to those days.
Let me be more precise. The temple from which Jesus came out of in Matthew 24:1 is the temple that was destroyed by the Romans in year 70.


Matthew 24 cont...
But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, "Behold, here is the Christ,' or "There He is,' do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, "Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, "Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. But immediately after the tribulation of those days ...

At this point Jesus was finished with the first question ie "when will the temple be destroyed?"
Note the words "Behold, I have told you in advance". Jesus is warning his disciples about things that they will see. Now he continues to answer the second question ie "What will be signs of his second coming and the end of the world"?

Matthew 24 cont ...
.... THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

So this is the end of the world which according to this text came right after the destruction of the temple. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days"

Conclusion
1) Jesus is speaking to his discples in private
He continuously tells them that "you" will see this and that ...

a) See to it that no one misleads you
b) You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars
c) Then they will deliver you to tribulation
d) Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION
e) But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near
f) Then if anyone says to you, "Behold, here is the Christ,' or "There He is,' do not believe him.
g) So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you,
this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

2) So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
This sentence says it all. Speaking to his disciples in private Jesus says to them when you see all these things you will know that the the end is near. This generation will not pass until all these things take place.

3) Jesus is answering two questions
When will the temple be desctroyed [1] and
what will be signs of Jesus' return the end of the world [2] ?
Luke makes it clear that the armies surrounding Jerusalem and then trampling on Jerusalem can be no other that the Roman armies in the year 70. These are the tribulations referred to which answers the first question.
"But immediately after the tribulation of those days ..." is the end of the world
So Jesus is saying that his second coming and the end of the world is to come right after the destruction of the temple. This anwers the second question.


So what do you suppose that the discples understood by all this???


1 Thess 14-17
We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The author of this text believed that he would be part of the living at the end of the world. At the very least he tought that there was some chances that he would still be alive. Given that two thousand years later the end of the world did not happen then he should have said
"the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, those who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so they will be with the Lord forever.
Note the two words that were changed "we" with "those" and "we" with "they".
So the author was misled in believing that he had even a chance of being alive to see the end of the world.

1 Corinthians 15- 51:52
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Note that Paul here is saying that "the dead will be raised imperishable" while the living "we will be changed".
Paul includes himself in the living otherwise he would have said. "We will be raised imperishable and those you are living will be changed". Paul fully expected to be alive when it happens.

1 John 2:18
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

James 5:8
You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.

1 Peter 4:7
The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.



Condition 1
"(T)his gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come" (Matt. 24:14).

Condition 1 fulfilled
Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

... and the end did not come.

Time frame 1
Matt. 16:24-28
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For the son of man will come in the glory of his father with his angels, and then he will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom

40 years?, 60?, 100 tops.

Nearly 2000 years later and it did not happen


Time frame 2

Matthew 10
5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
7 As you go, preach this message: `The kingdom of heaven is near.'
...
23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

How long can twelve people take to go through all the cities of Israel?

40 years?

Nearly 2000 years later and it did not happen


When it did not happen someone felt that more conditions should be added

New condition 1

Before
1 Thess 14-17
We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

After
2 Thessalonian 2:2-3
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The day of Christ is still "at hand" but a new twist has been added
"the day shall not come, except there come a falling away first"
If this was what God had decreed all along, then why didn't Paul just say that in his first epistle? Apparently so much time had passed since the first prediction that someone felt the need to explain why that prediction had not yet been fulfilled. The explanation was that other things had to happen first and then Christ would return, and the early Christians apparently bought it. But the son of perdition is what they refer to as anti-Christ but 1 John 2:18 tells that too has already happened a long time ago.

1 John 2:18
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.


New condition 2
a slightly different track was taken by whoever wrote 2 Peter. The first epistle of Peter had warned that "the end of all things is at hand" (4:7), but when time went by and the end did not come, damage control was necessary, so a second epistle of "Peter" was written to explain the failure

Before
1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer

After
2 Peter 3:8-10
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


This, Tercel, is how preachers buy time when it is obvious that they got it all wrong.

Tercel

My belief is based on philosophical argument and my experiences and the experiences of others who have experienced God within the Christian tradition in the present day. If evidence=blind faith then yes I am guilty.

Hmm, well lets see...
I believe in God, the ultimate creator of all, who existed before anyone else, who is more powerful than anyone else, more knowledgeable than anyone else, and who is present everywhere.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God and man: One Person, Two Natures (and heck even Two Wills if anybody still cares), born of a virgin, who was baptised, who taught, who performed miracles, who was crucified and rose again, whos incarnation and death was to deal to sin and reunite man unto God, who shall come at the end of the world to establish an everlasting kingdom.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, that he came upon believers at Pentecost, that he works within willing people transforming their natures into that of love and compassion as of Jesus Christ, that he empowers such things as Healing and speaking in tongues.
I believe in angels and demons. I believe in eternal happiness for some and eternal suffering for others in the hereafter.

Am I a Christian? Hmm... you tell me.

NOGO

Are one who was transformed?

NOGO

Here is one that I missed.
These verses say that some people complained even then that "the fathers" died but the end of the world did not come.

Now do you think that "the fathers" were?

It must reference the early Christian leaders.

Ted Hoffman

Tercel dear,
There is absolutely nothing philosophical about a virgin conceiving without sperm from a man.
There is absolutely nothing philosophical about believing in demons and in a demi-god.

On the contrary, what you call philosphy is pure mythology.
With belief in the Holy Spirit and such, you indeed qualify as a christian whi uses pick-and-choose theology sprinkled with mythology.
I can sure you however, that whatever it is you have in mind when you refer to experiential reasons for your faith, those experieces have clear naturalistic explanations and it is unnecessary to invoke myth to explain them.

Out of curiosity, do you believe in the existence unicorns and mermaids? If not, why not?

Thank you for sharing with me your concotion of christianity.

Metacrock

I get from the sense of the passage the possiblity that the culmination of the age is the open ended and set in motion by Christ's death. The sense is that he came to evoke the end of the age. But even so, granting that the end of the age was a larger framework in which Christ appeared, it probably refurs to the early chruche's understanding of Messiah as herolding the end of times. But so what? I don't see a problem there. So they misunderstood the time frame, even Jesus said he didn't know.


What if it does meman that? Why must the author be totally correct in all of his (her?) understanding of God's divine time frame? Besides Layman is probably working on some kind of dispensational assumption, in which case the end of the age would be the end of the age of the Law of Moses.


I still don't see what makes it such a big deal


Link Fixed
Is the Bible the Word of God?

Peter Kirby

The context of 2 Peter shows that it is addressing the delay of the Parousia, but the "fathers" mentioned may refer to the biblical patriarchs.

best,
Peter Kirby

Metacrock

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IronMonkey
Nogo,
Forget Layman.
I'd like to add something to your exposition of Hebrews 9:26. You focused largely on consummation of the ages but I would also like to add something onto that which might not be exactly on point, but that can further expose the authors platonic leanings and midrashic writing but more importantly, the idea that Christ had suffered many times since the world was created.
I am using NIV
Hebrews 9:26:
The author says "he had to suffer"/"he needed to suffer". What does he base this necessity to suffer on? He bases it on an interpretation of the earthly sacrifices in the OT.
Hebrews 9: 22-23:

The law required it. Even in heaven, except, tha author says, better sacrifices are required in heaven. And just like in the High Priests scenario, it had to be done again and again. Thats why the author says Christ too, had to suffer since the creation of the world. Of course, the phrase "foundations of the earth" used by the flatearthers, notably the Psalmist and Isaiah among others, referred to the beginning of the world (Isaiah 51:13, Isaiah 48:13, Psalm 18:15, 1 Samuel 2:8).

Based on the fact that the author believed that Jesus had to suffer repeatedly since the creation of the world, its clear he believed in Christ Logos and not an earthly christ. This motif of christ logos did not require an earthly christ.['quote]



b]that conclusion is not justified. Just because the yearly sacrafices were mirrored by perfect one's in heaven, that doesn't not follow that the last one had to be in heaven. The ones in heaven of which he speaks were mirrored of the earthly one's by intecession of Christ in bearing the sins before God. And in that he's talking about a metaphorical sacrafice of incesense which represents prayer.Nowhere in the text is it even implied that the author thinks this is in heaven (the cross I mean). the Hebreic author makes it abundatnly clear that Christ had a flesh and blood existence on earth.[/b]


But one curious thing:
KJV says in Hebrew 9:12 and 9:26:





I think the author says clearly he's talking about Jesus' sufferings as part of his earthly life, throughout his life, and in the garden when he prayed.

link fixed
Is the Bible the Word of God?

NOGO

Hi Peter,

Biblical patriachs?

How do you justify this interpretation?

Obviously the somebody in question expected something to happen before "the fathers" passed away. What was expected to happen before the biblical patriarchs passed away?

If this is not a reference to the generation passing away before all these things happen in Mt24 what is it referencing?

I am just curious to another possible interpretation. Somebody once told me that it was a prophecy of the last days etc.

NOGO

Hi Meta,

First the "age of the Law of Moses" suffers from the same problem as Layman's culmination of salvation history.

Nobody can seriously say that Jesus chose to be born on Christmas day.
Nobody can seriously say that Jesus chose to suffer once at the end of the age of the Law of Moses. That is so because Jesus' life, death and resurrection ended the age of the Law of Moses.

Second this definition like Layman's clashes with all other occurrances of the concept of the end of aions as I showed in my first post.

If this was a correct interpretation then (and as an example)

When Jesus said that in this age people married but in the next age people will not marry ...

One must read it as

Now that we are no longer in the age of the Law of Moses people no longer marry.

If not why not?

You can go through all the examples that I gave and see similar arguements.

THEN show me occurrances of the word aion which can be substituted by the "age of the Law of Moses"