Jamie_L

If God loves us, why does he not protect so many of us from harm? It seems the usual response to this question has to do with free will and/or preserving some balance - suffering creates virtues and allows us to understand the value of not suffering.

I came up with an analogy this weekend. Flawed, I'm sure (analogies typically are), but nevertheless:

I love my 3-year-old daughter. Because of that, I don't want her to harm herself by sticking her fingers in light sockets. To that end, I do not let her stick her fingers in light sockets. Because my daughter has never stuck her finger in a light socket, she is not aware of the suffering it would cause. She just knows that I tell her not to do it, and that things are done that make it difficult for her to stick her fingers in outlets (outlet covers, etc.)

By covering the outlets, I am robbing her of her free will to stick her fingers in outlets. Would I be more loving if I allowed her free will? My daughter does not appreciate how much I am doing for her because she has never suffered an electric shock. Should I allow her to stick her finger in a socket so she can learn that? Will that make her appreciate my love better? Will that do a better job of building in the virture of not sticking your finger in an outlet?

By the way. My daughter still has free will to do lots of other things. She still knows I love her in general. And she still loves me.

Wouldn't it be possible for God to just keep us from sticking our fingers in outlets while letting us exercise our free will in less dangerous ways and using other means to display his love?

mike_decock

This concept ties into something I've been considering recently.

Most Christians define "Free Will" as the ability to choose freely, but I think that what they are really implying is that "Free Will" is the ability to choose between good or evil. Most Christians tend to deal in absolutes (black/white). I think they argue free will under that absolutist definition because it is the simplest way to absolve God from being responsible for the evil in this world.

Now, considering the analogy of your daughter, out of love you have limited her "Free Will" to disabling access to something which is harmful to her (evil, for the sake of argument). I think most people would agree that child-proofing your house is an act of love.

Have you really interfered with her free will? I don't think so. Her will is still just as free, you have just removed an opportunity for evil.

Does not being shocked by electricity prevent your child from enjoying all the wonderful things in life? Does your child need to suffer in order to enjoy your love?

When I look at young children, who haven't gone through the pains of growing up, I always marvel at how happiness can overwhelm them. A child's laughter and the pleasure they take in life is rarely equalled in adults. Do we really need suffering to understand joy? I don't think so.

If you could remove all opportunities for evil from her life (for the rest of her life, with no negative consequences), wouldn't you do that for her?

Free will is the the ability to make choices. That doesn't necessarily mean that those choices need to be between good and evil, those choices could just as easily be between good and good.

Wouldn't a loving parent want to provide their children with an endless variety of "good" choices and remove the opportunities for evil?

The existence of evil and suffering is unnecessary.

-Mike...

GeoTheo

Explain to me how it would ever be possible for someone to know what God kept them from?

Bree

Well, we know because the Bible tells us so. God has given humans Free Will. This implies that He's not intervening, unless we specifically ask for help through prayer. If this was NOT the case, then clearly we don't have Free Will.

mike_decock

God could tell them.

Why would it matter anyway?

-Mike...

Jamie_L

It might not be possible (though it might, God being God and all). My question is, why is it necessary? One point of my analogy is to question the necessity of knowing such things.

Jamie

Biff the unclean

The whole "free will" thing appears to be nothing but flim-flam for the simple minded.
In this world the God does nothing. Exactly what you expect when there is no God.
The Xians are saying "See how nothing is happening? That's God not doing anything because he is so cool." This of course requires that they ignore all of the attributes they assign this God and ignore all of the stories about him striking people dead, stopping the sun, turning people to salt and the like.
It really is a sign of desperation on Xians parts when they bring up "free will."

the_cave

Oh, I wouldn't say god is doing nothing. S/he's merely existing--which includes doing something, whenever it's something good happening (well, this is an oversimplification--creation can also perform good on its own. But that question has a long history.) Or not doing anything, when it's something bad happening. But that's because I equate "the good" and god. I suppose you can choose not to make that equation.

At any rate, back to free will. Yes, it's a good thing to childproof your house. But it would be sick to childproof you adult child's house.

Biff the unclean

I've been keeping a very close look out for any signs of divine activity. Unfortunately I've completely missed it. Tell me Cave, what have you seen God do and how did you check to be sure that it was God who was doing it?

Rhea

Quite so. I imagine if we were to be comparable to god as an adult is comparable to another adult, then it would indeed be insulting.

My understanding is that we are so inferior in comparison to this god concept, that not only is the child analogy quite accurate, but that a <3yo is actually a good measure.

Funny, Christians are okay being lambs, but not toddlers. ?