Jamie_L

SOMMS:

You are but one man with many antagonists to respond to, that I understand.

As for the points I made, I don't think we ever really got to the bottom of my complaint with this line of reasoning: That it boils down to calling a good number of former-theists-turned-atheists liars or incompentent seekers of God.

Is this really your contention? It seems like you haven't fully accepted this aspect of the philosophy presented in your OP. Think about it, because it entails more than just telling people to seek God. It entails either a sweeping prejudice that most atheists or liars, or it entails the belief that many people may be incapable of finding God - which is a Pandora's box unto itself.

Jamie

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie_L ]</p>

Jobar

SOMMS, you have not yet addressed any of the objections raised to your thesis. Not a single one, so far as I can see.

You have not explained what seeking with an open heart actually means.

You have not explained why those who tell us they have sought, found nothing, even though they were believers at the time and were pained by the silence they found.

You have not explained why we should be "open" to your God and not Allah. (You are aware, aren't you, that there are more Muslims than Christians?)

You have not explained why a 'God' who you say loves us all is so completely hidden from people who are not predisposed to finding him.

There are plenty of other unanswered questions, but let's start with those. [sarcasm]I am beginning to doubt that you are capable of answering any of these in a way which is intelligible. [/sarcasm]

TerryTryon

For me, there is no "if." God simply has no place in my worldview.

Since god is an non-entity, anything that might happen when one seeks god, must be a purely psychological instance with no connection to reality at all. (Unless, of course, one is taken in by a hoaxter.)

I am challenging SOMMS on two claims:

1) that the word faith is difficult to understand or communicate about. I claim that the bible defines it clearly and people use it clearly in this sense in everyday speech. Of course, as an atheist, I believe Mark Twain made much the same point as Paul reducio ad absudum, "Faith is believing what we know damn well ain't true,"
[The quote may not be word for word accurate]Faith in Paul's sense is a dangerous vice and an insult to one's intelligence.

and 2) the claim that "successful" god-seeking does not depend on faith (aka make-believe), basing that claim on biblical authority. I would like to know on what discourse in the Bible that he bases this remarkable claim. Furthermore, I maintain that it is psychologically impossible to create a sincere knowledge claim of any such nonsense without relying to some degree on faith. Faith is a necessary, but not sufficient cause, for claims of god-knowledge to develop.

Perhaps my post was not clear as to my intention. I did notice in re-reading it that I had neglected at least one important preposition. I regret any misunderstanding my lazy proofreading may have caused.

Dr. Retard

If the point is the claim that nonbelievers haven't really seeked super hard, then the claim is simply false, as anyone can find out with a cursory empirical investigation.

If the point is the claim that nonbelievers haven't seeked super hard in the special way that eludes detection, then the claim is impossible to assess empirically, but at least has a very low a priori probability (being so weird and specific and all).

If the point is that people should be prepared to seek things that are defined to be really friendly and awesome, then I agree. But only in the reasonable sense of leisurely checking the couch cushions for change, and not the crazy sense of seeking after One-Eyed Willie's gold because you think "Goonies" is real.

crocodile deathroll

I have explored every option vigorously, theism, deism, pantheism, Brahmanism so no one needs to tell me my disbelief in god is due to the fact that I have not developed the right attitude or not attemped to developed some kind a relationship towards a god(s).
And at the end of the day I had to give in to atheism

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]</p>

GaryR50

It always amuses me that theists will always start any theological argument as though it has already been assumed that there is a god. They invariably start with that a priori assumption and start arguing details that have no foundation until the question "what is god?" has first been answered. To start any debate in which the very subject's existence is at the core of the dispute necessarily begs a satisfactory answer as to exactly what is meant by the term being argued for or against, namely, "god." All other debate is impossible and irrelevent until all parties have agreed as the definition of "god." Otherwise, one party will assume that all others mean the same thing he does when using that term, and vice-versa. It may not arise, then, until much later, that neither of them means the same thing at all. When you're arguing for or against the existence of something that is so subjective as "god," for which there are myriad definitions, depending upon which variant religion the "pro" side is from, no sensible arguments can be made for or against until all parties know and agree as to what they are arguing for or against.

Gary

crocodile deathroll

Yes I have frequently stated "god" is nothing other than an ambiguous word in the dictionary. So if someone asks me "do you believe in god?" my standard reply is "which god?"

Just one nore question, how to how cope with this in Oklahoma, the so called "buckle of the bible belt"?

croc

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]</p>

B. H. Manners

I too wish to see SOMMS address the points Jobar brought up.

bluefugue

A minor point. According to <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org" target="_blank">www.religioustolerance.org</a> there are more Christians... the site says they constitute 33% of the world population while Muslims constitute about 20%. I don't know how accurate these figures are. Of course, there are more non-Christians than Christians worldwide.

Jack the Bodiless

True.

However, as Islam is currently growing faster than Christianity is, it could be argued that more seekers are finding Allah than finding Jesus.