Dark Jedi

I was discussing existance of gods and faith with a few people, when presented with the question: "How do you know god does not exist?"

And out of nowhere, this reply is forthcoming. I didn't know I had it in me!

"The answer is as ambiguous as the question. What you believe is true, is true. If, to you, there is a god; then for you, there is one. It is when you take that belief outside yourself that you remove it from subjective proof into the much tougher realm of objective proof. In this arena, religion must fail. Religion requires faith, and withers in the presense of proof."

Is it too much to <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> yourself?

Red Expendable

Very well said. I agree with that totally.

It seems that although this makes sense to an atheist - I've never met anyone who believes in a god or gods to have them change their views with this kind of reasoning.

I think that when it comes to a show-down between faith AND reasoning, facts, proof,etc - faith always wins out (when dealing with a theist), and the reasoning and proof are actually meaningless in the theist brain when it comes to the almighty chirst-our-lord-saviour, all knowing all powerful, blah, blah, blah.

It's interesting how 'faith' is not really even an option when it comes to anything else in life. How many theists or atheists would dart out onto a busy highway and take it in faith that all the cars would stop and/or miss them?

Probably no one (unless you are suicidal). How about letting 'god provide' the food for your table, without having to go out and earn it?
You think if you don't get money to pay the bills that you are going to continue to have electricity, gas for your car, etc? Has faith and praying helped anyone in these cases? No.

When it comes to almost anything in life - would it be safe to say that most theists would never leave anything to FAITH - regarding the PHYSICAL world. BUT when it comes to the one thing that is 'safe' to be completely fucking wrong about - that is: the belief in a non existent entity -- it's O.K.

Belief in god(s) -- In my a opinion, is a form of self-delusion.

RedEx

[ September 08, 2002: Message edited by: Red Expendable ]</p>

Bible Humper

Excellent stuff, Dark Jedi, I love it!

Seriously now, have you ever seen a believer change their view with any kind of reasoning? It seems to me that reasoning can only help a process already in motion, it is woefully insufficient alone.

Keith Russell

Greetings:

Having been involved in religious and philosphical debate for almost two decades, I must admit that a person who believes any arbitrary claim (a claim for which there is no independently verifiable evidence) is probably not going to change their viewpoint.

However, I have often been able to get 'believers' (of whatever arbitrary claim, whether God, UFOs, or any other silliness) that they are irrational--to agree that their beliefs are not based upon reason, but upon 'faith': the 'desire to believe'.

That, at least, is a start, IMO.

Keith.