Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Cretinist · 09-08-2002, 01:04 PM

Ok, I know this guy who owns a Christian book store. I came in to get some stuff from him before (a Harper Collin's Study Bible, Michael Martin's The Case Against Christianity and I'm currently waiting to get Brown's Intro to the NT). He's actually not so bad, for a Fundy.

I knew the topic of Creationism vs. evolution would come up between us eventually, since he has anti-evolution material all in his bookstore. When it finally happened, he tried the eye on me. That was quite easy to deal with, but then he said something extremely stupid. I'll paraphrase him:

"Yeah, but you see, you need a hole in your head for eyes. So before you can even gradually start evolving an eye, you need a hole in your head which is extremely disadvantageous."

Now this nonsense would normally be easy to deal with, but I'm dealing with a YEC here. While I was able to point out that eyes and bones evolved long before humans did, I'm not exactly sure about the evolution of skeletal structures, so I wasn't able to give as satisfactory answer as I would have liked.

So if anyone can please point me to some resources (preferably online) about the evolution of skeletal structures, it would be a great help if that topic comes up next time I see him.

Also, I made a deal with him that if he would read Kennith Miller's Finding Darwin's God that I would immediately begin reading some book he has already given me titled Can Man Live Without God by Ravi Zacharias. So if anyone knows of any critical reviews of this book, I'd appreciate that as well.

tgamble · 09-08-2002, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cretinist:
<strong>Ok, I know this guy who owns a Christian book store. I came in to get some stuff from him before (a Harper Collin's Study Bible, Michael Martin's The Case Against Christianity and I'm currently waiting to get Brown's Intro to the NT). He's actually not so bad, for a Fundy.

A christian bookstore selling atheist books? Is that normal?

Quote:

"Yeah, but you see, you need a hole in your head for eyes. So before you can even gradually start evolving an eye, you need a hole in your head which is extremely disadvantageous."

Now this nonsense would normally be easy to deal with, but I'm dealing with a YEC here.

Only a YEC would use such an argument! Try the PBS evolution site. They have some good material on the evolution of the eye.

Quote:

Also, I made a deal with him that if he would read Kennith Miller's Finding Darwin's God that I would immediately begin reading some book he has already given me titled Can Man Live Without God by Ravi Zacharias. So if anyone knows of any critical reviews of this book, I'd appreciate that as well.</strong>

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/zacharias.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/zacharias.html</a>

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/apologetics.shtml#zacharias" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/apologetics.shtml#zacharias</a>

Lizard · 09-08-2002, 04:38 PM

I guess the natural conclusion is that some people have more holes in their heads than can be explained by evolution.

Jesse · 09-08-2002, 04:52 PM

A similar argument was brought up on this ARN thread, you can check out the responses there:

<a href="http://www.arn.org/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001126" target="_blank">Where are the 4-eyed creatures?</a>

Doubting Didymus · 09-08-2002, 05:15 PM

Could you be more specific about skeletons?

Skeletons in humans come from skeletons in the early land fish, which progressively developed them from even more primitive support structures.

In short, there has never been a vertebrate that has had to evolve eyesholes in their skeletons. Eyes came first, and the skeleton naturally evolved to have holes in it.

I sense that you knew this already, so what is the problem, exactly? what do you need to know?

Blinn · 09-08-2002, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doubting Didymus:
<strong>

In short, there has never been a vertebrate that has had to evolve eyesholes in their skeletons.</strong>

This is correct. Among the Deuterostomes, the blastopore formed during gastrulation becomes the anus.

Baddum dum...

(Sorry

)

Doubting Didymus · 09-08-2002, 06:12 PM

This begs the question:

Do protostomes eat with their anus, or do deutorostomes crap with their mouths?

Cretinist · 09-08-2002, 06:14 PM

tgamble, I got him to special order it for me. Thanks for the links. I probably would have checked the library myself, if I had bothered my own search. I'm such a lazy bastard�

Doubting Didymus, I know eyes evolved first and all that, I'd just like to read up on the evolution of skeletal structures. You know, stuff that talks about that progressive development and all that.

Cretinist · 09-08-2002, 07:03 PM

Jesse, I just looked at the thread. Could it be that this 'problem' for evolution appears in some obscure piece of Creationist literature? I've never encountered it before, yet it seems too stupid for two Creationists independent of each other to think it up by themselves.

Badfish · 09-08-2002, 09:36 PM

Since your so set in your belief, is there any good points the bookseller makes? Just wondering.

You know I'm not even biased, and my salvation doesn't even matter whether I believe in evolution or not, but the first response and first impression is that total evolution doesn't make sense.

I can believe however that there is evolution within species, and not evolution from fish to man. And... and sorry for straying off topic.

It's hard to debate with good debaters of YE beliefs.

Maybe you can touch on some points he is making that is causing you to stumble.

09-08-2002, 01:04 PM	#1
Cretinist Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hell Posts: 399	Need help dealing with some Creationist. Ok, I know this guy who owns a Christian book store. I came in to get some stuff from him before (a Harper Collin's Study Bible, Michael Martin's The Case Against Christianity and I'm currently waiting to get Brown's Intro to the NT). He's actually not so bad, for a Fundy. I knew the topic of Creationism vs. evolution would come up between us eventually, since he has anti-evolution material all in his bookstore. When it finally happened, he tried the eye on me. That was quite easy to deal with, but then he said something extremely stupid. I'll paraphrase him: "Yeah, but you see, you need a hole in your head for eyes. So before you can even gradually start evolving an eye, you need a hole in your head which is extremely disadvantageous." Now this nonsense would normally be easy to deal with, but I'm dealing with a YEC here. While I was able to point out that eyes and bones evolved long before humans did, I'm not exactly sure about the evolution of skeletal structures, so I wasn't able to give as satisfactory answer as I would have liked. So if anyone can please point me to some resources (preferably online) about the evolution of skeletal structures, it would be a great help if that topic comes up next time I see him. Also, I made a deal with him that if he would read Kennith Miller's Finding Darwin's God that I would immediately begin reading some book he has already given me titled Can Man Live Without God by Ravi Zacharias. So if anyone knows of any critical reviews of this book, I'd appreciate that as well.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-08-2002, 04:38 PM	#3
Lizard Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Kansas Posts: 169	I guess the natural conclusion is that some people have more holes in their heads than can be explained by evolution.

09-08-2002, 04:52 PM	#4
Jesse Moderator - Science Discussions Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Providence, RI, USA Posts: 9,908	A similar argument was brought up on this ARN thread, you can check out the responses there: <a href="http://www.arn.org/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001126" target="_blank">Where are the 4-eyed creatures?</a>

09-08-2002, 05:15 PM	#5
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	Could you be more specific about skeletons? Skeletons in humans come from skeletons in the early land fish, which progressively developed them from even more primitive support structures. In short, there has never been a vertebrate that has had to evolve eyesholes in their skeletons. Eyes came first, and the skeleton naturally evolved to have holes in it. I sense that you knew this already, so what is the problem, exactly? what do you need to know?

09-08-2002, 06:12 PM	#7
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	This begs the question: Do protostomes eat with their anus, or do deutorostomes crap with their mouths?

09-08-2002, 06:14 PM	#8
Cretinist Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hell Posts: 399	tgamble, I got him to special order it for me. Thanks for the links. I probably would have checked the library myself, if I had bothered my own search. I'm such a lazy bastard� Doubting Didymus, I know eyes evolved first and all that, I'd just like to read up on the evolution of skeletal structures. You know, stuff that talks about that progressive development and all that.

09-08-2002, 07:03 PM	#9
Cretinist Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hell Posts: 399	Jesse, I just looked at the thread. Could it be that this 'problem' for evolution appears in some obscure piece of Creationist literature? I've never encountered it before, yet it seems too stupid for two Creationists independent of each other to think it up by themselves.

09-08-2002, 09:36 PM	#10
Badfish Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Death Valley, CA Posts: 1,738	Since your so set in your belief, is there any good points the bookseller makes? Just wondering. You know I'm not even biased, and my salvation doesn't even matter whether I believe in evolution or not, but the first response and first impression is that total evolution doesn't make sense. I can believe however that there is evolution within species, and not evolution from fish to man. And... and sorry for straying off topic. It's hard to debate with good debaters of YE beliefs. Maybe you can touch on some points he is making that is causing you to stumble.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.