Demigawd

So, basically, you're admitting that you're prejudiced towards Catholics by virtue of accepting one group's interpretation of a rival Christian sect. Glad you clarified that for me.

Mageth

Yes, God is infinitely above her, yet she is prayed to, worshipped, and said that she can save people from Hell.

Show me where the Catholic Church officially says that Mary can save people from Hell without God's grace, on her own so to speak. :banghead:

Magus55

You quote what? That there are exceptions? Did you read this part?

"However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity. "

The Catechism:

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512 [Note from bible: 1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509

2030 It is in the Church, in communion with all the baptized, that the Christian fulfills his vocation. From the Church he receives the Word of God containing the teachings of "the law of Christ."72 From the Church he receives the grace of the sacraments that sustains him on the "way." From the Church he learns the example of holiness and recognizes its model and source in the all-holy Virgin Mary; he discerns it in the authentic witness of those who live it; he discovers it in the spiritual tradition and long history of the saints who have gone before him and whom the liturgy celebrates in the rhythms of the sanctoral cycle. ONLY God is all-holy - complete and total blasphemy.


964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion: Mary has absolutely NOTHING to do with salvation. Its only Jesus.

2146 The second commandment forbids the abuse of God's name, i.e., every improper use of the names of God, Jesus Christ, but also of the Virgin Mary and all the saints. Abusing Mary's name, is the same as abusing God's.

As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."141 Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."142 Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."143 [b]The Bible: (Adam brought Sin, Jesus brought life, not Mary)

Rom 5:12-21 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


I can find more but if this, from the official doctrine of the RCC, by the Pope and Vatican, is not enough to convince you of the heresy in the RCC - then i give up.

Magus55

You know what Mageth. I give up with you. You don't give a crap about what I have to say, only that I'm wrong about everything.

You say my interpretations our wrong. Explain to me, how you can interpret something wrong when its not even in the Bible to interpret?

Example:
Mary's Assumption


966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:


I gaurantee you, you will never find anything in the Bible that even has anything to do with Mary and rising to Heaven like Jesus. Mary was not assumed, she died, just like every other human.


Mary's immaculate conception:
491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:


The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135

492 The "splendor of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son".136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love".137


No where in the Bible is it even implied that Mary was born without sin. Only Jesus was.

Demigawd

Fanatics using ellipsis when quoting make me suspicious. Also, asking me to accept the concept of heresy in regards to one Christian sect's beliefs over another is pretty funny (I'm a big fan of medieval history, you see). Go forth and learn all you can about religious dogmas without relying on tinted-by-already-accepted-beliefs glasses is my advice to you. You'll be surprised how much you'll actually learn.

Mageth

You quote what? That there are exceptions? Did you read this part?

Yeah, I read that part. But the quote I gave directly contradicts your assertion that "It says one that isn't part of the Catholic church can't be saved." The quoted part clearly shows that as a false accusation.

And you rather conveniently left out this from the catechism (from here) :

It's Christ who is the sole mediator, Word, and redeemer, according to the RCC. Mary saves no one on her own.

As for "ONLY God is all-holy - complete and total blasphemy":

Don't you realize that the Catholics think you are the one blaspheming???

Mageth

You know what Mageth. I give up with you. You don't give a crap about what I have to say, only that I'm wrong about everything.

:boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo:

Well, if you'd ever say something right, I'd be more than glad to agree with you.

And you might say "pot, kettle, black" applies here.

What was my main point on this thread? Trying to get you to actually understand the doctrine you were criticizing, which it is blatantly obvious that you do not. IOW, I was trying to help you, to get you to think, if in a bit of a confrontational way. If you want to fight the RCs, you'd do well to fully understand their doctrine instead of continuously mischaracterizing it.

You say my interpretations our wrong. Explain to me, how you can interpret something wrong when its not even in the Bible to interpret?

Once again, take it up with the Roman Catholics. As far as I can tell, they have biblical backing for all their doctrines.

Really, this is a Catholic/Protestant fight that I, as an atheist, only desire to be a rather bemused spectator to (until the bloodshed starts; then I'm heading for the hills). Here, I've been playing the Devil's Advocate and defending the Catholic side, as it seems there's not many Catholics here to defend their own side.

I gaurantee you, you will never find anything in the Bible that even has anything to do with Mary and rising to Heaven like Jesus. Mary was not assumed, she died, just like every other human.

I'm pretty sure some of the sites I pointed you to pointed out scriptures that the Catholics interpret to back up this claim, so your "guarantee" might be a bit tenuous. Once again, if you don't like their interpretation, take it up with the Catholics.

Edited to add: On second look, I don't think that the scriptures in the Protestant bible are used to back this claim. This page gives the early church sources for the Doctrine of Assumption.

Again, if you don't think their sources are valid, take it up with them. One holy writing is as good as another to me.

No where in the Bible is it even implied that Mary was born without sin. Only Jesus was.

Again, I'm pretty sure some of the sites I pointed you to pointed out scriptures that the Catholics interpret to back up this claim as well. If not, this page does.

Once again, if you don't like it, take it up with them

mike_decock

You gotta be kidding me. You go to Rapture Ready to find out about Catholicism? That's like going to a BMW dealer to find out about about a Mercedes.

You have to keep in mind that the Catholic Bible contains additional books that were removed in the Protestant Canon. The Catholic Church also relies heavily on the writings and traditions of the founding fathers when determining their doctrine.

Fact of the matter is that the Protestants are the heretics. They are the ones who broke from the tradition of the Catholic Church, removed books from the Canon and removed doctrine they didn't like.

-Mike...

Godless Dave

Now it's true the Catholics broke from an earlier tradition to build a more organized, authoritarian church. But we know very little about that earlier tradition, although it is documented that women could lead worship in the days of earlier Christianity. But we don't know what the early Christians used for a "Bible" - all we have left is what the Catholics included in their Bible. Some Protestant denominations claim they are going back to pre-Catholic Christianity but that claim is ludicrous since we know so little about early Christianity, and what we do know doesn't jibe with what those Protestant denominations teach.

mike_decock

Did they break with the earlier tradition or build on it?

Were Christians in the first century "True Christians"(TM) since they didn't have the Protestant Bible?

Actually, that is one of the things that made me question Christianity. If the Bible wasn't canonized for some 3 centuries, what about the people in the meantime?

-Mike...