rainbow walking

Odemus: Here's what I believe is a much more interesting question. I think if we are all honest with ourselves we will say that each of us ascribes to some code of ethics to get through life civily i.e. "Do unto others" etc. etc. You can argue that morality is a human construct (not some sort of universal standard) and is conditioned by family and society and all sorts of moral reletavistic notions and that's fine, I'm not interested in arguing that point.

Rw: Unfortunately Odemus, if you are sincere in exploring this question, this subject cannot be ignored. Why, or indeed if, people are as depraved as you claim, closely examining ALL the factors used to arrive at such a conclusion should not be hamstrung by what YOU are interested in arguing. I suspect the reason YOU are not interested in arguing the salient points of this subject has more to do with the fact that there are some obvious truths in there that completely negate your fallacious conclusion that mankind is hopelessly depraved.

Odemus: What I want to know is why is every human being totally incapable of conforming to these standards of "right" and "wrong"?

Rw: Are you sure that “totally” is appropriate? Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say “consistently? “Totally” sounds like all of mankind never, ever complies with their morals or ethics. Should you be prefacing an argument of this magnitude with falsehood?

What “standards” are you referring to? Any and all standards? Are you bemoaning the fact that people are not perfect; they aren’t born perfect, don’t live perfect lives? By this you conclude all of humanity hopelessly depraved? Have you ever once stopped to consider where your ideal model of perfection came from? What it actually purports to extol as perfection? I would venture a guess that you haven’t. What standards of right and wrong do you attempt to adjudicate your behavior by?

Odemus: You can give an explanation in terms of this inability being a function of evolution but that still doesn't address the human condition of 'helpless depravity'.

Rw: I CAN ADDRESS IT!

First let’s examine your conclusion that the human condition is one of helpless depravity. Is this a truthful claim? How did you arrive at such a conclusion? What standard did you base this on?
Then let me add a personal note just before I rip this claim into shreds.

Consider this an intricate part of the entire argument. I don’t care how polite you are, or civil your tone, this is one of the most offensive accusations you could ever level at me or my family. You have just matter-of-factly cursed my mother and father, belittled my sons, and raped the good nature of my wife. To say that I resent this is an under statement. But I will endeavor to maintain a civil tone equivalent to your own as I unfold an argument that will molest your pet beliefs in the most insidious manner. I can assure you that when I am finished you will either be too embarrassed to ever mouth such inanities again or you will rush to your local church and beg for another baptism to cleanse you of this filth once and for all.

To begin with, when confronted with such mind poisoning conclusions about the human condition, one wonders how folks who buy into this tripe function in the world at large. But then, when you take into consideration that they have a cult mentality that protects them from the obvious consequences of actually enacting such a curse it isn’t too difficult to see how they’ve managed to put this one over on the world for such a long time and gotten away with it.

But even their cult monastery walls aren’t thick enough to protect them from the mind rotting effect of accepting such a stench as true. Witness their struggle with their sexual drives as pastor after pastor runs off with the piano player and priest upon priest is brought to justice for the molestation and rape of young boys. I mean, hell, if we are hopelessly depraved, why not enjoy it every now and then…yes? And have you ever noticed that they man their ranks and farm their sheep from among those who have been influenced by this very damnation of an edict; folks who’ve been spoon fed this garbage from birth by un-suspecting parents. No one really understands how long and pervading this poisonous pollution has been hovering over their lives and futures and how much it has contributed to the acts these scoundrels no doubt refer to when supporting this lie. Every time someone gets busted or another newsflash brings us another gory tale of serial killing these fools gleefully rub their hands together and make a mental note to include a reference to it in their next sermon. No one ever sees behind the camera at the religiously fanatic mother who created the monster and was guided in that creation by this very edict that all of humanity is hopelessly depraved.

No one will ever know the actual value of the goods and services that are squandered on extravagant building structures while mouthing inanities about caring for the poor and destitute. One only wonders how many of the poor could have been helped for the price of the baptismal pool or candelabra; how much the shepherd skims off the top and how much is slipped in under the table.

“Ah, but this is just further proof of the depravity of the human condition.”, they’ll claim, while ignoring the fact that if you teach people they are depraved why be surprised when they actually believe you and behave accordingly.

But this is only the tip of the iceberg. Can we put a dollar value on the cult driven laws enacted by deluded politicians on every level of American government? Laws that reflect this very mentality? Blue laws that restrict a free man’s right to open and manage his business as he sees fit. To prevent honest, hard working Americans the right to buy alcohol on Sunday, or not at all, in particular geographical locations?

Everywhere we find science blazing a trail into the future why do we find large groups of these hopelessly depraved cult spokesmen gathered like flies to restrict, hinder and hamper our progress by appealing to the force of government to legislate our future to conform to their
hopelessly depraved moral strictures? Could it be due to the fact that they see their end drawing nigh? That with each new scientific breakthrough another cult driven edict that was suppose to insulate their imaginary god from humanities ability to know or do is trampled upon? Could it be that they have organized and sought ways to protect the sanctity of their lie long enough to retire with a pension?

But then we mustn’t forget all the little cultural effects this “hopelessly depraved” human condition allows them to manipulate. How much their influence has managed to control our thoughts, language, choice of clothing, arts, pleasures, prosperity, and educational curriculum. Let’s not forget how often they invade our privacy at public social events and various government functions where everyone is EXPECTED to comply with their demand to bow our heads and pretend we are talking to this invisible deity that has so poisoned their minds that they can’t see the difference between their pastor advocating a new church building program in lieu of building a house for the poverty stricken single mom who just joined the cult, while claiming sacrifice and suffering are the virtues most pleasing to their deity. Let’s all join the President as he prays to this non-existent deity, that is the most monstrous figment of humanities imagination ever perpetrated upon us, who is portrayed as the epitome of love, while he dispatches our military to scatter limbs and bones in the most painful manner with non-personal bombs. What must our children be thinking?

So it behooves me to ask you, Odemus, by what standard do you mouth this conclusion as though it were true without consideration for the effects of having it mouthed for thousands of years? Your own book of dreams teaches us in Proverbs that whatsoever a man thinks in his heart so he becomes. Now if you continue to parrot this venereal disease in some piously righteous tone why do you think it should even be a question you should ask or consider? It should be obvious. It is to your cults advantage to keep fertilizing the fields so as to assure themselves a steady supply of sheep.

Even your own book admits it must have a human nature to damn before it can begin the process, hence Adam gets to be the lackey, so don't try to argue that human nature was first to damn itself. Take a perfectly normal person and begin teaching them they are hopelessly depraved; teach their progeny and their progeny down thru the millinia and sure enough, presto, like magic, you've got a species believing they are hopelssly depraved. But don't gape in wonderment as you begin observing the effects of this damnable edict. Just invent a set of religious strictures to try and contain the damage...and make a buck or two in the process.

Now let’s turn our attention to this human NATURE you have so recklessly abandoned as hopelessly depraved for a second look, shall we? Let’s see how it stacks up with your cults surreptitious designs. It is, I think you’ll have no choice but to agree, geared towards our survival, is it not? After all, we couldn’t very well harbor any illusion that we could fleece much wool from a flock of DEAD sheep, could we? So let’s just assume that it is in everyone’s interest that the flock live long enough to pay their tithe and perform the necessary duties of keeping the temple cleansed…yes?

Then are we to assume that it is this aspect of human nature you have declared hopelessly depraved? Humans have no business wanting to live and any sign of expressing this human desire is just further evidence of depravity…right?

Or could it be the very human natural tendancy to want to be FREE to live, that its anti-thesis, (slavery) isn’t copasetic to life? Could this be the culprit hiding in the woodpile? Is this what permits you to label us as hopelessly depraved? If it is I wonder how you reconcile that declaration with your cults prognosis that all men must freely choose to serve your deity? It seems to me, and I could be wrong, but if you must have a flock, and willing slaves are more productive than unwilling slaves, that you’d be extolling the virtues of LIBERTY louder than anyone else on the block. Have I missed something here? Well, yes I have. I almost completely over-looked the fact that your deity has brainwashed you into believing that we are all slaves. That our only free choice is in choosing who gets to be our master…isn’t that right, Odemus? We have, on the one hand, your invisible sky daddy and on the other hand his nemesis the invisible devil and his minions. Gosh, it must be hard deciding which invisible master to bow and scrape to…yes?

Hey, maybe the natural human tendency towards COMMUNITY is the guilty party in our search for the hopelessness of our depraved condition? Yeah, I bet that’s the one. If it weren’t for our natural tendency to congregate, (whoops! Did I use a term you’re familiar with?) there’d be no sin and depravity in the world to condemn causing you to believe in invisible deities. But that couldn’t be it, could it? I mean, without that natural tendency how would your mouthpiece assemble an audience? Where would he find a flock and how would he keep them together long enough to fleece ‘em? I guess we better keep looking.

Hey, I got one! How about our natural drive to procreate? Boy, now there’s one you guys have a heyday with. Of course, why didn’t I think of this one in the beginning, (whoops! Did I use another familiar phrase?). That’s got to be the cause of our hopelessness and depravity…yes? But, but, if we don’t procreate, how’s the general going to mount an army of missionaries to infect the rest of the unsuspecting world with his dogmatism? I mean, people grow old and need replacing right? So we can’t very well undermine this very human tendency, can we? Damn, and I thought I was making progress, (whoops! That’s a dirty word…sorry).

Well, hell Odemus, I seem to be running out of human natural tendencies. Everyone I’ve considered as possible candidates thusfar have been tendencies that your human masters need to remain in business. If I didn’t know better I’d swear you guys would be out of luck were it not for human nature. So the only question that just naturally rises to the surface is…why damn it as hopelessly depraved? You need human nature to continue functioning just as it has for thousands of years for your leeching habits to survive. Without human nature around to damn what would motivate folks to believe in your invisible sky daddy?

“Ah but John, folks do violate their morals and ethics, this can’t be denied.”

Well Odemus, you got me there. I have to admit that humans, by their very nature, are not PERFECT beings, unlike your sky daddy and his son, so I guess if we can’t attain to perfection the only alternative is hopeless depravity. I wish there was some happy medium but it’s always an either/or with you guys and I don’t see any way to rectify the issue from your perspective. Either we live as perfectly as you claim your deity and his son have/do/did, or else we just resign ourselves to being dirtbags and scumballs fit for the furnace and waiting in line to be brow beaten, chastised, abused, milked and fleeced for our sin of not being perfect. I have a sneaky suspicion this Original Sin crap is a crowbar used to pry your way into our psyches.

“Well John, we do have a moral code that is objective and founded on God, what have you got?”

Oh, you mean the one that’s impossible to practice due to our nature as imperfect beings? Well, since you’ve asked, (you did ask you know, it was implied in your question, even though you poisoned the well before you asked).

As a matter of fact us imperfect humans do have a moral foundation that doesn’t require your skydaddy or you. It is objective also because we are its objective and mostly because its based on our human nature as it is and not as your deity has decreed it will never be.

I happen to be fortunate enough to live in the USA and the moral foundation of my life is grounded in the constitution of my country. It holds that we have been born with some INALIENABLE rights. By the way, that means your skydaddy can’t touch ‘em. It’s really very simple too, (un-like your code that seems to get re-interpreted every so often whenever something comes along that undermines your ability to use it effectively against us. You know, the way it use to be morally cool to own slaves and then it wasn’t so cool any more).

Our code only has two strictures and one sub-stricture. Here’s how it goes:

We, as human beings, have the inalienable right to LIFE and LIBERTY and the sub-stricture, which is actually it’s greatest expression, (and really cool, too) and to pursue our own happiness.

That’s it! That’s all the foundation we have or have needed. From that foundation we’ve survived a civil war, world wars, presidential assassinations, all kinds of tests and tribulations, (whoops! Another familiar term).

But, rather than bore you with all the little details of how it can function without reference to your skydaddy, let’s just do a comparison of moral foundations to see who has the best ticket for nearing perfection.

Objectivity is the crux of our challenge.

Whose code has the greatest potential for the greatest number of humans to become more perfect creatures?

What are the objectives of the christian moral code? There appear to be two:

1. To render allegiance to its presupposition of a god as its foundation

2. To render from everyone obedience to this alleged deity.

All one has to do to determine the objectivity of a moral foundation is to determine its objectives. As evidenced above, the objective of the Christian moral code is centered in an other-worldly incomprehensible, un-defined god.

Once the objectives have been determined one only needs to examine its effectiveness in accomplishing these objectives to conclude its objectivity. Is it true that everyone everywhere pledge their allegiance and obedience to this deity?

Second, and more importantly, are its objectives necessary to the continued existence of the community and the individual? Historical precedence has shown that whenever and where ever a theistic code of morals have been accepted by a community, violence is soon perpetrated upon its constituents and their neighbors under the banner of religious intolerance.

Finally, are its objectives doable? Can they realistically be expected to be accomplished and if so, how? Again, by your own admission, its code is impossible to practice.

Now let’s put a moral code, based on a foundation of imperatives consistent to human nature, to the same questions.

1. What are its objectives? My code declares, voices, clarifies, exemplifies, that all men have an inalienable RIGHT to life and the LIBERTY to pursue any such happiness as may be derived from that inalienable right. I offer the USA as proof that its objectives are sound and have facilitated these very maxims consistently since its inception.

2. Are its objectives necessary to the continued existence of the community and the individual? I submit that they are absolutely essential to the existence of any and all communities of individuals irrespective of their allegiance to any other code of morals; that all other codes must invoke some degree of these maxims to function as any resemblance of a code. Thus they are not only universal but also self-evident making them axioms of the highest order in complete consistency to human nature.

3. Are its objectives doable? Without an appeal to these axioms, no other objectives by any code are possible. They are more than doable they are durable. Unless an individual desires to live as a slave with no desire to improve his lot, he must, as his nature dictates, appeal to these axioms.

The moral foundation I am defending is objectified by human nature. The application of its maxims, as they are subjected to the range and spectrum of human experience, has justified its superiority over any and all previously devised moral foundations known to man. And it is made so by the subjective translation of its ideals into the community and individual lives of its constituency, allowing those who have chosen to embrace it more of an opportunity to realize their personal, subjective goals of happiness than any other moral foundation ever devised.
To be consistent to its ideals it can only be a foundation for a subjective application of morals as they are introduced, revised and disposed. Thus it is a living, resilient responsive method of devising a prescription for the realization of its constituency’s self motivated goals, be they happiness, joy, love, peace, respect, prosperity, virtue, science or education.

The foundation is OBJECTIVE. The creation and application of morals based upon it are SUBJECTIVE.

Of course, you’ll likely write this all off as incongruent to your deities explanations and wishes and wait on that happy day when you’ll blast off into heaven leaving this old world behind. Bon Voyage.

Odemus: The fact is we all lie, we all cheat, we all steal and we all do things which our conscience convicts us of.

Rw: We’re not as perfect as your sky daddy says we once were, so what. Get over it.

Odemus: So to clarify my question. Why is it that no matter what effort we put toward living a guilt free life are we totally incapable of doing so?

Rw: Who says we’re totally incapable of doing so?

You?

Or your mouthpiece that supposedly represents the wishes of your magical mystery tour?

Perhaps you would do well to consider the source. If we reject a source of never ending guilt then we can live lives free from its oppressive restraints. But to tie guilt to the nature of us that enables us to grasp the necessities of life is about the most sickening ideology ever perpetrated upon humanity and by-god, I intend to expose it!

So to divest your question of its obvious load, we are capable of living a guilt free life and any claim to the contrary is perniciously designed to assign some guilt where none existed before your ancestors invented a way to instill it.

All that’s needed to disarm you is truth.


However, In as much as you’ve poisoned the well with your first paragraph it is apparent that you won’t accept an answer contrary to your faith. You’ve chosen to believe it’s attributed to original sin and that’s all you’ll really want to talk about, isn’t it? You want to hogtie humanity to your beliefs, ignore the alternatives, word your arguments to immediately dismiss those alternatives as things you’re not really interested in, write us all off as helplessly depraved sinners, and flippantly dis-regard any answer or discussion other than that which corresponds to your beliefs. But there are valid reasons why your assumptions should be exposed and categorically dismantled for the benefit of those who may see this as an inherent problem with an atheistic position. It isn’t and you are quite mistaken. The problem is yours and drifts up out of your camp like air pollution.

Odemus: I know I probably did a poor job of getting that across, but if you get the gist of my query then understand it is those kinds of questions that lead me to a faith in Christ, because those are the kinds of questions the Bible answers.

Rw: It doesn’t really matter how you package that shit or where you got it, the odor still permeates the package. Just so there’s no mis-understanding, I haven’t answered your question for your benefit, but for the benefit of all those who’ve evaded it since you arrogantly submitted it as a rational argument to justify your ignorance; for those who haven’t realized an answer was possible or just how thick this shit has been spread and how deeply offensive the smell. There is a subtle agenda being propagated and you can now consider it as EXPOSED.

HUMANS ARE NOT HOPELESSLY DEPRAVED! (rw bows to the audience and vacates the soapbox)

rainbow walking

O'kay, it looks as if Odemus is not going to tackle this one but I am interested in any critical comments anyone else might care to submit. What's up with the silence?

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by rainbow walking:
<strong>What's up with the silence?</strong>

I was stunned into awed speechlessness.

AtlanticCitySlave

I think the silence probably has something to do with the fact it's really long. A lot (if not most of us) probably don't have the time or care to read something that long in a discussion forum. I can tell you right now I'll never read it.

crab juice

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

rw, that was perfectly put...and was exactly the length it needed to be. A long, well-written post is worth the time it takes to read.

rainbow walking

rw: Thank you.

rainbow walking

rw: No problem. Do you think all subjects can be dealt with thoroughly in short, concise forms?

rainbow walking

rw: Cool...thank you very much.

Theli

Damn RW!


I wouldn't want to reply to that. You killed.
It seems strange though that you can dish out so much dirt on christianity, with such passion, and still you were a christian yourself not long ago.

Anyway, it was a great post. Thanks for posting it.

AtlanticCitySlave

"rw: No problem. Do you think all subjects can be dealt with thoroughly in short, concise forms?"

-No, and I never said that. I just don't think a lot of people want to spend their time reading something that long by you in a discussion forum.