Buffman

4th

Hey, at least the rest of us know where each of you stands on these matters....

Hehehehehe! You betcha!

Anti-Creedance Front

I think one of the biggest problems we have are SLACKERS. Some "freethinkers" just sit there, saying how they support so-and-so's decisions, or make arguments against religion, but when people like me and galiel come around, advocating doing something about it, they let me have it. I don't know if they're lazy, if they're stuck-up intellectuals, or they're having some inner conflict and they're a closet theist. It has become the American way of life to be a couch potato, lying around and wasting away. Some people are more passionate about their beliefs than that. I am dead serious about most of my beliefs, and I will defend them to the end. And one last thing, don't be a pain in the ass to people trying to actually accomplish something with this, or else you might as well be the opposition.

Buffman

A-C F

Perhaps you would be so kind as to give us the benefit of the knowledge you have gained from all the things you have already done on behalf of your beliefs.

Isn't it a little arrogant and immature for you to call others "slackers" when you have provided very little verifiable evidence that you have accomplished more than they have...and without the slightest knowledge about what they may or may not have accomplished before you were even born?

Some people are more passionate about their beliefs than that. I am dead serious about most of my beliefs, and I will defend them to the end.

Please don't go flying any airplane into a church to prove just how much you believe. Something similar has already been done on a far grander scale and has produced nothing but more death and destruction across the globe. Please try to channel your enthusiasm into things more positive and productive than insulting people you don't really know. Thanks.

galiel

Seriously, I wonder. Flames tend to obscure issues with scorchmarks and crud, leaving nothing but uniform gray ash and shapeless entropy. I think both of us have been reacting more to our frustrations with the irrational world we live in than to each other. I have been impatient with what I percieved to be Buffman's obsession with detail and suspicion of "regular" folks taking their own actions on their own initatives without "orders' from above, Buffman has been impatient with what he percieved as my simplistic thinking and melodramatic calls for fuzzy action with a naive ignorance of the powers arrayed against us.

I don't think either perception is correct, but I do think both reflect real problems among the nontheist community and our society at large.

We DO need the kind of theoretical, philosophical and meticulously researched--and universally available--foundation that Buffman seeks to provide, if we are to find some kind of common ideological base for nontheists to rally around, despite our differences--and to arm us to counter the ammunition at the disposal of the religious right.

We ALSO need to start DOING something, and to begin to raise the awareness within our OWN community about the need for synchronous, even if not wholy coordinated, action, because no coordinated action will succeed without sufficient motivation, discomfort and the presence of small victories to demonstrate the hope of better things to come. And, we need some individuals to make high profile gestures, such as Dr. Newdow's, to raise awareness as well as to take away the excuses for inaction.

As well, we DO need to recognize that we are facing a coordinated and well-funded opposition in the form of the religious right

(I don't wish to open a can of worms here, and I don't know if this has been discussed here already, it probably has, but anyone who doubts that their is a coordinated, strategic and long-term strategy to institutionalize theism in the American polity, need only do a google seach on the term "Wedge Strategy". It will be an eye opener, and you will see the various separation issues now boiling up through out the country in a whole new light.)

By the same token, we DO need to understand that our republic works on the principle of numbers, that neither individual actions nor individual decisions can be relied upon to be moderate, well-considered and in the best interests of the whole, but that, on average, spread through our highly diverse culture and populace, the nation as a whole (as opposed to its elected officials) tends to act decently and for the greater good. In otherwords, trust democracy and trust the people.


I am sure that there are as many points here to debate as there are words in this message (to judge from the philosophical threads, far more).

My sincere hope is that, at some point, we can move beyond the superficial things that divide us as separationists and focus on our common goals. While I agree that separation is in the interest of the majority of theists as well, it is only those who suffer from its lack that will take action. In the past, that has been minority religious groups. Today, it must be lead by us. No one is more excluded today (particularly on this day of 9/11) than those of us for whom this country is NOT "under god".

ybnormal

Keep saying that enough and maybe you'll get a bite, eventually... I have seen NO evidence that folks here see this big picture, and even less evidence that it is believed... I have used the exact wording repeatedly here, and I have yet to get a bite myself.

This was really about all I wanted to agree with you, in general, on the BP&C forum. My observation was that there seems to be no real interest (activism?) in connecting all the dots... not unlike the CIA and FBI have been accused regarding evidence of warnings prior to 9/11. I see the "dots" everywhere... Particularly on the Political Discussions forum... if others see the same "dots", I rarely see it voiced. In general, I think too many folks, see too many political events as being unrelated to each other, where I see cloudy, yet obvious, well-connected relationships.

There seems to be little connection being made between local school board decisions, 12 year olds suing schools for religious club rights, the ACLJ joining Bush and Baker in the Florida election court fights, America's to-the-death defense of Israel, the impending war on Iraq, faith-based initiative legislation, stem cell research being stopped, Ashcroft's scary inclination to curtail certain privacy rights, Ashcroft's arrogant prayer services inside the Justice Department, changing the 10 Cee's fight into a "historical document" fight, the free "In God We Trust with Flag" posters going into every classroom, Bush changing the judge selection process from the American Bar Association to The Federalist Society, not to mention the simple biblical connection that Bush has repeated a godzillion times since his campaign began, and that 9/11 played into perfectly, that our fight is with "good versus evil".

I suspect that most folks here will agree to your idea of a well-funded opposition far more and long before they'll agree to a coordinated opposition. I think too many of us seem to think, at our peril, that most of those above-mentioned events are more or less happenstance occurrences coming from the general public.

It's simply a matter of perspective... I could not disagree more, with those who say that the problem is not political... from my perspective, all of our real and immediate problems are nothing but political... another thing I've never gotten a bite on is the question, "What represents real xian strength, more than our political systems?" In other words, "Where else, in real terms, do they hurt our cause more?" Until someone at least puts a dollar figure on the amount of their tax-free collection plate money going into their political agenda, activists like yourself don't have a clue what they are up against.

PS: BTW, I also think the term "religious right" is an antiquated misnomer.

Peace!

Buffman

ybnormal

I have seen NO evidence that folks here see this big picture,

You just absolutely have got to be kidding! I have been beating that drum since my first month in these forums back in 2000. I have provided URL after URL as proof of my allegations. However, I think I can understand why most folks did not respond then or now. What can they do or say.

If anyone needed some proof of just how well coordinated and effective the radical right and vested interest Conservatives really are, all they have to do is recall just how many hours passed between the announcement of the 9th Circuit, "under God" decision before there was a Senate and House Resolution completed, signed and delivered supporting the monotheistic religious god; how long it took for the right wing radio broadcasters and TV personalities to start screeming the pat, prepositioned and approved line; and how long before the double-speak, rather standardized letters started hitting the newspaper Opinion pages.

Not that many weeks ago, I provided lists of money backers, media controllers, and foundations/think tanks that are all inter-related conservative/religious organizations backers.

The radical right wing religionists have been building their organization for a little over 20 years. Initially they made lots of tactical blunders, but they learned quickly. In my opinion, they went from taking over the Southern Baptist Convention in 1978 to taking over the White House in 2000. However, they did it within the framework of the law if not within the intent. I have speculated that they justify any and all questionable, or outright objectionable, actions with Romans 3:7&8.

If you wish to discuss this issue in greater depth, please feel free to contact me. (I had hoped to continue our discussion of the Lafayette quote but you did not respond further and I don't know your address.)

ybnormal

Originally posted by Buffman:
You just absolutely have got to be kidding! I have been beating that drum since my first month in these forums back in 2000. I have provided URL after URL as proof of my allegations. However, I think I can understand why most folks did not respond then or now. What can they do or say.

Your, most folks did not respond then or now makes my point... I have stated somewhere around here, that I was not sure whether this general non-response is a lack of interest OR a collective common knowledge that I have missed. I should have added more of an "in general" theme to that statement... I certainly was not thinking of The Buffman then... However, I was somewhat thinking of you when I stuck my nose into galiel's BP&C thread...

More, right under my line you quoted, was this: Particularly on the Political Discussions forum. This is where I see the "dots" not being connected most often, and again, in general.


If anyone needed some proof of just how well coordinated and effective the radical right and vested interest Conservatives really are, all they have to do is recall just how many hours passed between the announcement of the 9th Circuit, "under God" decision before there was a Senate and House Resolution completed, signed and delivered supporting the monotheistic religious god; how long it took for the right wing radio broadcasters and TV personalities to start screeming the pat, prepositioned and approved line; and how long before the double-speak, rather standardized letters started hitting the newspaper Opinion pages.

Excellent example... I saw that wherever it was posted and thought the same thing then...


Not that many weeks ago, I provided lists of money backers, media controllers, and foundations/think tanks that are all inter-related conservative/religious organizations backers.

This where I get to explain what I said above RE my thinking of you on the BP&C thread... maybe it's my age, but I can't keep up with where I see all that stuff... it seems to be all over the place, and once a thread tires, it drops outta sight... the forums are too many and too busy for that, and me, IMO... I was just thinking out loud then, that in general, there is no obvious central collection point, that I am aware of, where your type of "activism" can be added to, bit by bit over time... "activism" for me, at this point, is gathering information into a reference section... unless I've missed something, we each have our own collection. I did ask you once where I could find the thread on this particular subject that you'd written so much about, but you didn't have a clue.


The radical right wing religionists have been building their organization for a little over 20 years. Initially they made lots of tactical blunders, but they learned quickly. In my opinion, they went from taking over the Southern Baptist Convention in 1978 to taking over the White House in 2000. However, they did it within the framework of the law if not within the intent. I have speculated that they justify any and all questionable, or outright objectionable, actions with Romans 3:7&8.

I don't know the bible... don't even have one... I usually pin the start of the big push with Roe v Wade... it blew'em away and they will never get over it.


If you wish to discuss this issue in greater depth, please feel free to contact me. (I had hoped to continue our discussion of the Lafayette quote but you did not respond further and I don't know your address.)

I don't have a problem unlocking my email address, but I have never done that for several reasons... mostly because, this is me, totally candid, hiding nothing, all out in the open, like me or don't, but this is me, warts and all. And then, I like having the public record I suppose. And like, I usually won't have anything to say that others shouldn't see, as it would all be on topic anyway, so to speak. I see that you don't start threads anymore than I do. Hmmmm...

Sorry about not answering back... I thought you were done... and like I said above, I am a real slut when it comes to these threads, drifting in and out like a bad smell... I'll go away for a few days and kinda sorta have'ta start all over again... I get up in a new fuzzy world every morning... which is another way of saying that this xian mess don't bother me near as much as it may appear from reading my posts.

So, uh, do you ever start new threads?

Buffman

ybnormal

Your, most folks did not respond then or now makes my point... I have stated somewhere around here, that I was not sure whether this general non-response is a lack of interest OR a collective common knowledge that I have missed. I should have added more of an "in general" theme to that statement... I certainly was not thinking of The Buffman then... However, I was somewhat thinking of you when I stuck my nose into galiel's BP&C thread...
More, right under my line you quoted, was this: Particularly on the Political Discussions forum. This is where I see the "dots" not being connected most often, and again, in general.

I suspect that the seeming lack of interest is understandable. Perhaps for theses reasons:

1. Others have not tracked the activities of the religious right and conservatives as closely, and for as long, as we have.
2. Most rationalists will shy away from anything that smacks of a "Conspiracy Theory." (Just look at what happened to Hillary Clinton's allegation of a "Right Wing Conspiracy." It was eviscerated...rather than professionally investigated.)
3. "What can I, as a relatively powerless, individual poster to the Sec Web, do about any of this even if I wished to try?"

As far as it being a "collective common knowledge," that is very difficult to determine. My gut tells me that it isn't. That is because of the enormous amount of time and effort I have had to put into studying the situation and still finding myself unable to point, with any great degree of clarity or certainty, at a specific Mastermind Manipulator central group that coordinates and instructs all the associated groups ("cells") toward a specific ultimate goal. I have had a modicum of success in locating what I believe to be is the central organization behind the Conservative success...The Heritage Foundation. However, determining if it is the Heritage Foundation that uses the radical Christian right to achieve its political goals, or the radical Christian right that uses the Heritage foundation to achieve its religious goals is quite another thing. It isn't so much the overt complexity of these interrelationships which are all quite legal and above board. It is the far more subtle, and stealthy, covert (seldom if ever stated or printed) motivations for these relationships that are almost impossible to nail down. IMHO, they are intentionally geared to avoid "collective common knowledge. " That has concerned me ever since I retired for active public life.

Excellent example... I saw that wherever it was posted and thought the same thing then...

I actually viewed it as a tactical error because it seemed so obvious that it was a nationally controlled radical religious right instigated "pogrom." What was most disturbing to me was how quickly the so-called Conservatives picked up the identical hue and cry. However, the single most disturbing fact was the almost mind-boggling rapidity with which our Congress parroted this same claptrap using the error filled and distorted information they all supported...and far too quickly to have read the complete 9th Circuit decision. Another reason why I felt it was a tactical error was because of the scope of its success. It flushed the really out-of-control religious fruitcakes out into the open. They are the ones that publicly threatened to rain death and destruction on Dr. Newdow, his family and supporters. Their actions enlisted support for Dr. Newdow and exposed the radical religious right for what it really is. A "religious terrorist" organization based in America. Our very own American Taliban. This was not what the Master Manipulators desired as a consequence of their "Rapid Response" pogrom. They sought and found a new approach. Mrs. Newdow and the daughter.


This where I get to explain what I said above RE my thinking of you on the BP&C thread... maybe it's my age, but I can't keep up with where I see all that stuff... it seems to be all over the place, and once a thread tires, it drops outta sight... the forums are too many and too busy for that, and me, IMO... I was just thinking out loud then, that in general, there is no obvious central collection point, that I am aware of, where your type of "activism" can be added to, bit by bit over time... "activism" for me, at this point, is gathering information into a reference section... unless I've missed something, we each have our own collection. I did ask you once where I could find the thread on this particular subject that you'd written so much about, but you didn't have a clue.

(Lots of good stuff in that paragraph. Tough to give a short meaningful response that would have general interest appeal.) But here goes!

1. I have great respect for our volunteer Moderators. I don't see how they are able to keep up with just one forum...let alone all of them. I sure as hell can't. I'm sure that you have read a number of my "faux pas's" in recent days due, in good part, to my leaping around and forgetting where I have been and what I said. However, the worst thing I do is not take the time to read and fully examine/digest each individual post in light of prior comments before rushing to get my two fingered thoughts into print. Recently I find myself at least four or five posts behind the current flow.

2. I have set my system to only display the last 30 days of posting. That means that there are usually five or more pages, out of sight, that I must review if I hope to keep relatively abreast of current thoughts/comments. In one sense, it is wonderful that we have so much activity. I find that extremely welcome and positive. However, it is a bloody bear to remember where I wrote something or saw what someone else wrote. But that is more due to my own laziness than anything else. I should start recording when and where I post or see a post that captures my attention. However, since I have this tendency for diarrhea of the fingers, I might well wind up spending as much time recording where things are posted as I do posting them.

3. I must admit that I have tended to view the entire Sec Web as the central collection point. As the membership has grown, so, too, have the specific sub-issues recruited additional adherents and the need for specialized forums. IMO, the load on the Aministrators has grown somewhat disproportionately with the increase in membership. I have been very impressed by the measures and actions taken by these current Administrators to successfully meet the vast array of individual desires of the membership within the constraints of their own operating rules and goals. They are providing us with a free, vital, and successful, service that I have found no other place. (I have just read Don Morgan's comments about reviewing the appropriateness of the "Activism Forums" label for these two forums. I give galiel credit for surfacing the issue and Don credit for so quickly placing it under review. That kind of even-handed responsiveness is difficult to find in the real world and is very much appreciated by me...who is apt to push the limits of free speech to the extremes now and again.)

4. Yes, you most certainly did ask me if I could provide you a thread where I had commented about that issue. I simply couldn't remember. That's when I attempted to find your e-mail address so I could offer to send you some specifics from my 2000+ Favorites. ---Many of the items that you might find interesting were posted by Kate Long and myself back in the early months of 2001. Since I don't know what you already have in your own files, I am somewhat loathe to do an extended search and only wind up citing things about which you are already fully aware. Any suggestions?

I have speculated that they justify any and all questionable, or outright objectionable, actions with Romans 3:7&8.
I don't know the bible... don't even have one... I usually pin the start of the big push with Roe v Wade... it blew'em away and they will never get over it.

Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Not only are those two KJV verses a grammar and punctuation nightmare, they are vulnerable to various interpretations if taken out of context.--- You could well be right about the Roe v Wade. However, I am more inclined to view that as a last straw in the decline of their vision of a moral western civilization, and which gave the Protestants and ideal opportunity to join forces with the activist Catholics in what they called a "Christian Coalition" Against Abortion. Initially they were "Anti-Abortionists." Then the propaganda word mechanics went to work and they became the "Pro Life" people. That was a brilliant change. The Abortion folks became "Pro Choice." (In Florida, special license plates say "Pro Life." None say "Pro Choice.")

I don't have a problem unlocking my email address, but I have never done that for several reasons... mostly because, this is me, totally candid, hiding nothing, all out in the open, like me or don't, but this is me, warts and all. And then, I like having the public record I suppose. And like, I usually won't have anything to say that others shouldn't see, as it would all be on topic anyway, so to speak. I see that you don't start threads anymore than I do. Hmmmm...


I understand. Not a problem...just a convenience sometimes.

Sorry about not answering back... I thought you were done... and like I said above, I am a real slut when it comes to these threads, drifting in and out like a bad smell... I'll go away for a few days and kinda sorta have'ta start all over again... I get up in a new fuzzy world every morning... which is another way of saying that this xian mess don't bother me near as much as it may appear from reading my posts.
So, uh, do you ever start new threads?

That was all just me. I was so thrilled that someone took the time to attempt to help me on that "constant thorn in my side" issue, that I wanted to provide you with all the details in order to save you any future unnecessary research and hope that you might have a suggestion I had not already pursued. (It was that issue that initially brought me to the Sec Web.) Again, thanks for the interest. I actually e-mailed a bunch of those quote list people requesting original sources and alerting them to the fact that they could be putting out propaganda.

Thanks for this kind of thoughtful response.---I tend to start new topics about local events that may have national implications...or when something is really bugging me.