Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Hayden · 02-20-2003, 08:43 PM

Often lately, I hear George W, and even some on this forum state that "freedom is America's greatest export", or worse: "They hate us for our freedom".

Does anyone really believe this? (Apart from those stating it, or course) To those who do, I would be interested in hearing exactly in which areas pertaining to freedom/human rights the USA leads the world, and also American freedom/human-rights initiatives predating similar initiatives in any other country, or at least significantly improved on any previous examples.

I'll start with a counter example (excuse the home-grown example; it's all I can think of at the moment):

Universal suffrage (right to vote).

Kate Sheppard led the charge to ensure voting rights for women, and succeeded in 1893. By contrast, Britain the USA only allowed women to vote (on a national basis) in 1918 and 1920 respectively.

Kate Sheppard

Also, on the subject of suffrage:

Quote:

As the US elections were under way November 7, an estimated 3.9 million Americans, or one in fifty adults, were denied the right to vote due to felony and other criminal convictions. In many cases these individuals have been permanently stripped of their voting rights. Of these 3.9 million people, 1.4 million have already completed their sentences and another 1.4 million are on probation or parole.

Full article Okay, so it's a socialist web site.

This situation is of course related to the current situation with you-know-who and Florida.

HR

PS I don't intend to bash the USA or its citizens; it's just that it's kind of insulting to continually hear that "our" freedom is so much inferior to American freedom. I love you guys, really.

Gunnaheave · 02-20-2003, 08:53 PM

�and of course our record of propping up puppet dictators in various foreign countries makes it difficult to view freedom as something we export. Rather it seems to be something we often enjoy at others' expense.

Buddrow_Wilson · 02-20-2003, 08:54 PM

American Freedom*

*subject to change without due or just cause

Loren Pechtel · 02-20-2003, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Buddrow_Wilson
American Freedom*

*subject to change without due or just cause

This has been repealed by Asscroft.

Answerer · 02-20-2003, 09:56 PM

I don't see how by forcing other countries to accept a democracy system or society, American government could be regarded as a 'champion of freedom'.

Godless Dave · 02-21-2003, 05:26 AM

Both Bin Laden and Saddam are mostly pissed off about the American troops stationed in the freedom-loving country of Saudi Arabia.

(sarcasm^)

I would buy the champion of freedom rhetoric if we were more vigorous about defending Taiwan; if we supported Tibetan independence; if we told Israel to dismantle the settlements in the occupied territories or we would cut them off; and if we weren't in Saudi Arabia.

Selsaral · 02-21-2003, 06:03 AM

I agree completely with you Hayden. I notice also Bush has said things like 'Our enemies hate the fact that we can worship our god in our own way'. Clearly ridiculous propoganda.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Feb10.html

simian · 02-21-2003, 07:36 AM

Freedoms:

Worship Almight God in any manner we wish (Athiests do not have this freedom - Freedom of Religion, not Freedom From Religion).

Support the president in any manner we wish (protesters will be deemed "un-american", enough outbursts and they will be labeled "enemy combatants")

Ah yes, american freedoms.

Simian

Atticus_Finch · 02-21-2003, 07:58 AM

Oh how we forget. Would Europe enjoy democracy and freedom today but for the United States? No. We saved Europe from the Nazis and the Soviets. Western Europe and those new democracies in Eastern Europe owe their freedom directly to the United States. Many of those nations remember that fact and support the United States now. Others, like France, do not and pursue their own interests at this time.

South Korea is a funtioning democracy. Do you think if we would have let the North's invasion succeed that that would be the case? Just look at N. Korea now and your question will be answered. For that matter, Japan's democracy is of U.S. creation and protection.

Taiwan. Functioning democracy. Who in their right mind thinks the PRC wouldn't have crossed the Straits of Taiwan and extinguished democracy in Taiwan but for the threat of our navy.

Israel. Functioning democracy. Does anyone think it would have survived without the U.S.? Does anyone really believe that if the Arab states had been allowed to snuff it out we wouldn't have had another holocaust on our hands?

Turkey. Functioning democracy. Does anyone really think it would have been able to resist Soviet pressure without U.S. help?

Many of these democracies are far from perfect. I would, however, put any one of them up against Syria, Iraq or China.

I could go on but that is sufficient to make the point.

To anticipate a response, yes the U.S. has at times worked against "democratic" forces in certain countries. I do not dispute that. However, nations must act at times in a manner to protect their own interests. It is a harse reality. Have we always acted wisely or appropriately? No. One can recognize failings without discounting the overall record. Overall we are a force for freedom and democracy throughout the world. The U.S. should be applauded and admired.

Regards,

Finch

Krieger · 02-21-2003, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Does anyone really believe this?

Yes, the hordes of ignorant nationalists do.

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02-20-2003, 08:53 PM	#2
Gunnaheave Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: AZ Posts: 3,250	�and of course our record of propping up puppet dictators in various foreign countries makes it difficult to view freedom as something we export. Rather it seems to be something we often enjoy at others' expense.

02-20-2003, 08:54 PM	#3
Buddrow_Wilson Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Arkansas Posts: 1,589	American Freedom* *subject to change without due or just cause

02-20-2003, 09:56 PM	#5
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	I don't see how by forcing other countries to accept a democracy system or society, American government could be regarded as a 'champion of freedom'.

02-21-2003, 05:26 AM	#6
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	Both Bin Laden and Saddam are mostly pissed off about the American troops stationed in the freedom-loving country of Saudi Arabia. (sarcasm^) I would buy the champion of freedom rhetoric if we were more vigorous about defending Taiwan; if we supported Tibetan independence; if we told Israel to dismantle the settlements in the occupied territories or we would cut them off; and if we weren't in Saudi Arabia.

02-21-2003, 06:03 AM	#7
Selsaral Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan Posts: 3,095	I agree completely with you Hayden. I notice also Bush has said things like 'Our enemies hate the fact that we can worship our god in our own way'. Clearly ridiculous propoganda. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Feb10.html

02-21-2003, 07:36 AM	#8
simian Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 1,924	Freedoms: Worship Almight God in any manner we wish (Athiests do not have this freedom - Freedom of Religion, not Freedom From Religion). Support the president in any manner we wish (protesters will be deemed "un-american", enough outbursts and they will be labeled "enemy combatants") Ah yes, american freedoms. Simian

02-21-2003, 07:58 AM	#9
Atticus_Finch Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 392	Oh how we forget. Would Europe enjoy democracy and freedom today but for the United States? No. We saved Europe from the Nazis and the Soviets. Western Europe and those new democracies in Eastern Europe owe their freedom directly to the United States. Many of those nations remember that fact and support the United States now. Others, like France, do not and pursue their own interests at this time. South Korea is a funtioning democracy. Do you think if we would have let the North's invasion succeed that that would be the case? Just look at N. Korea now and your question will be answered. For that matter, Japan's democracy is of U.S. creation and protection. Taiwan. Functioning democracy. Who in their right mind thinks the PRC wouldn't have crossed the Straits of Taiwan and extinguished democracy in Taiwan but for the threat of our navy. Israel. Functioning democracy. Does anyone think it would have survived without the U.S.? Does anyone really believe that if the Arab states had been allowed to snuff it out we wouldn't have had another holocaust on our hands? Turkey. Functioning democracy. Does anyone really think it would have been able to resist Soviet pressure without U.S. help? Many of these democracies are far from perfect. I would, however, put any one of them up against Syria, Iraq or China. I could go on but that is sufficient to make the point. To anticipate a response, yes the U.S. has at times worked against "democratic" forces in certain countries. I do not dispute that. However, nations must act at times in a manner to protect their own interests. It is a harse reality. Have we always acted wisely or appropriately? No. One can recognize failings without discounting the overall record. Overall we are a force for freedom and democracy throughout the world. The U.S. should be applauded and admired. Regards, Finch

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