Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Felstorm · 05-14-2003, 01:17 PM

Blatant hypocrisy.

Quote:

*** Watchtower 1919 April 1 p.6414 ***
[Not available on 1993/1995/1999 CD-ROM]

...Is not the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society the one and only channel which the Lord has used in dispensing his truth continually since the beginning of the harvest period?

Again the JW's claim to be "channeling" the information right from "god".

Quote:

*** Watchtower April 1, 1920, pp.100, 101 ***
[Not available on 1993/1995/1999 CD-ROM]

We would not refuse to treat one as a brother because he did not believe the Society is the Lord's channel. If others see it in a different way, that is their privilege. There should be full liberty of conscience.

*** Watchtower 1922 September 15 p.279 ***
[Not available on 1993/1995/1999 CD-ROM]
[This is a summary, not a quote]

[The loyalty test: God gave CT Russell to the church as a mouthpiece for him. Those who claim to have learned the truth apart from CT Russell are deceivers. Satan will cause people to think Russell was not the channel.

*** Watchtower 1930 August 1 p.239 ***
[Not available on 1993/1995/1999 CD-ROM]

The Watchtower is the channel which Jehovah, our God, is using at this time to in the faithful remnant who are keeping the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

*** Watchtower 1931 November 1 p.327 ***
[Not available on 1993/1995/1999 CD-ROM]

The Watchtower is not the instrument of an man or any set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. No man's opinion is expressed in the Watchtower.

*** Watchtower 2001 August 1 How to Make Your Advancement Manifest ***

8 First, since �oneness� is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and �the faithful and discreet slave.

*** Our Kingdom Ministry September 2002 (For Britain) p. 8 ***
[Note: not available on 1993/1995/1999 CD-ROM]

5 God's Appointed Channel: Bear in mind that our heavenly Father has an appointed channel of communication, "the faithful and discreet slave." That "slave" has the responsibility to determine what information is made available to the household of faith, as well as "the proper time" for it to be dispensed. This spiritual food is available only through the theocratic organization. We should always look to God's appointed channel for reliable information, not to a network of Internet users. -- Matt.24:45.

You see YHVH truth for every selective quotation of claimancy of not being prophets and that you are "imperfect". I can use your same tactic against you and pull out more and more and more instances of where you claim to be divinely directed under the "hand of god". I don't have to prove to you that your credibility is nill. You will blindly continue to think what you are told by your religious leadership.

To prove how well documented the WTBTS is at making false prophecies just go to google and look at what happens when you type in "false prophecy" into the search bar.

http://www.google.com/search?query=f...phecies&num=10

Whats the first link? The Heavens Gate cult? The false prophecies of the Catholic Church? Or the Lutherans? Or the Sunni Muslims? Or the Buddhists?

The WTBTS has made prophecies in the past, and then later denied that they ever made them claiming that, they are divine messengers from god and if what they say doesn't come true then it must have been "satan" or "human imperfection" and they are not responsible for their false prophesying because they are god's only "appointed channel" of theocratic information.

In the "theocratic world" the WTBTS is a laughing stock.

Quote:

Lorne Dawson of the University of Waterloo has recently completed a significant survey of the "failed prophecy" literature. He finds that while many groups do suffer a membership loss, most groups continue to survive and a few even grow. Dawson identifies three strategies groups use after a failed prophecy:

1. Proselytizing: The group converts new members to compensate for the disappointment.

2. Rationalization: The group denies the failure with a plausible reinterpretation of events.

Four types of rationalization (or reinterpretation) :

* Spiritualization: The event occurred, but on an invisible, spiritual level
* Test of faith: The group proved their faith to the Lord and set an example for the world. Now they must prepare for the real event.
* Human error: There was a misunderstanding, miscalculation, or moral inadequacy of its followers.
* Blaming others: The followers did not do something properly or they took the prediction too literally. This is rare because it can often hurt a group.

3. Reaffirmation: Use the event as a challenge to act even more zealously. The group proved its devotion and vowed to become even stronger.

Dawson also presents a list of six things which may influence the adaptation strategy chosen:

1. The level of in-group social support. The more solidarity and communication, the better. Size helps, but coherence is more important.
2. Role of leadership. The quicker, more confident, and higher amount of charisma that the leader uses, the better.
3. Scope and sophistication of ideological system. The more complex the ideological system, the easier it is to explain the failure and therefore it is easier for the group to recover.
4. Nature of the prophecies and the actions they inspire. The more vague and less extreme, the better.
5. Role of ritual in experience. The more ritual, the better.
6. Organizational structures. Such things as size and structure probably has an effect, but little is known.

Long standing groups, such as the Jehovah�s Witnesses, may easily survive because its members get deeply involved in the routine matters of keeping the organization going.

Felstorm · 05-14-2003, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radcliffe Emerson
I cannot recall the exact passage, but Jesus himself tells his followers some of them will still be alive to see his return. And John of Patmos wrote Revelation to his followers because the Romans were killing Christians, and told them to take heart because Jesus was about to return and save them. (yes, Revelation was written about Rome, not some coming end time).
Well, whaddya know?
Jesus didn't return.

Go figure.

And, Hal Lindsay stated in 1988 the end times were occurring because the bible says they'll happen 40 years after Israel becomes a nation again.

Looks like ol' Hal missed the boat too.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/prophecy.html

Need a failed biblical prophecy... here's the list.

Azathoth · 05-14-2003, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by YHWHtruth
...remember keep free from GIGO!
Garbage in Garbage out

Max

That is possibly the best argument,for not reading Watchtower publications,that I've ever seen.

I'll tell you what,YHWHtruth,I can see that you're really not interested in knowing the truth about the organization you're a part of.

But,if you ever want to know the truth about them,I'll help you as best I can.

Armageddon groups.They waste more lives than virtually any other type of religious sect.

05-15-2003, 11:51 AM

Jehovah's Witnesses realize that through prayer, study, and meditation on God's Word we can better understand Jehovah's purposes. There have been times when the Scriptures and world conditions may have seemed to point to the fulfillment of certain Bible prophecies. Yet, as time went on, and the light from God's word became brighter, adjustments were gladly made in order to conform to the teachings of the Bible. (Pr 4: 18) The disciples of Jesus were faced with a similar situation, as reflected in the account recorded in John 21 :20-23:

"Upon turning about Peter saw the disciple whom Jesus used to love following, the one who at the evening meal had also leaned back upon his breast and said: "Lord, who is the one betraying you?" Accordingly, when he caught sight of him, Peter said to Jesus: "Lord, what will this man do?" Jesus said to him: "If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me." In consequence, this saying went out among the brothers, that the disciple would not die. However, Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but: "If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you?"

Here we see how individuals can innocently misunderstand something. Peter simply wanted to know what responsibility John would have. Yet, Jesus told him not worry about it; rather, he should concern himself with his own responsibility of 'feeding the sheep. ' ( Joh 21:15-17) Nevertheless, Peter interpreted Jesus ' words to mean that John would never die. He even began telling this to others. But as we can see from John's words recorded above, Jesus did not say that John would never die. Did this make Peter a false prophet in the eyes of his brothers? No. In fact, he wrote two letters that contain vital, prophetic information for all Christians. His motives were good; he simply did not understand Jesus' words at the time.

The same is true of Jehovah's Witnesses today. Their motives have never been self-serving; they have always used the Scriptures in an effort to substantiate their teachings. ( 1 Th 5 :21) And when they are wrong they make the necessary changes in hopes of bringing their views in closer conformity with that of God's Word.
THE MAIN FOCUS of the Witnesses is still the proclamation of the good news of God's Kingdom, the royal presence of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the soon-to-be- vindicated name of the Sovereign God, Jehovah!

Thank you for your time.

I will now be leaving to finland for 3 weeks

Take care all of you, including you FEL.

Max

Felstorm · 05-15-2003, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by YHWHtruth
Jehovah's Witnesses realize that through prayer, study, and meditation on God's Word we can better understand Jehovah's purposes. There have been times when the Scriptures and world conditions may have seemed to point to the fulfillment of certain Bible prophecies. Yet, as time went on, and the light from God's word became brighter, adjustments were gladly made in order to conform to the teachings of the Bible. (Pr 4: 18) The disciples of Jesus were faced with a similar situation, as reflected in the account recorded in John 21 :20-23:

"Upon turning about Peter saw the disciple whom Jesus used to love following, the one who at the evening meal had also leaned back upon his breast and said: "Lord, who is the one betraying you?" Accordingly, when he caught sight of him, Peter said to Jesus: "Lord, what will this man do?" Jesus said to him: "If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me." In consequence, this saying went out among the brothers, that the disciple would not die. However, Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but: "If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you?"

Here we see how individuals can innocently misunderstand something. Peter simply wanted to know what responsibility John would have. Yet, Jesus told him not worry about it; rather, he should concern himself with his own responsibility of 'feeding the sheep. ' ( Joh 21:15-17) Nevertheless, Peter interpreted Jesus ' words to mean that John would never die. He even began telling this to others. But as we can see from John's words recorded above, Jesus did not say that John would never die. Did this make Peter a false prophet in the eyes of his brothers? No. In fact, he wrote two letters that contain vital, prophetic information for all Christians. His motives were good; he simply did not understand Jesus' words at the time.

The same is true of Jehovah's Witnesses today. Their motives have never been self-serving; they have always used the Scriptures in an effort to substantiate their teachings. ( 1 Th 5 :21) And when they are wrong they make the necessary changes in hopes of bringing their views in closer conformity with that of God's Word.
THE MAIN FOCUS of the Witnesses is still the proclamation of the good news of God's Kingdom, the royal presence of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the soon-to-be- vindicated name of the Sovereign God, Jehovah!

Thank you for your time.

I will now be leaving to finland for 3 weeks

Take care all of you, including you FEL.

Max

Do I detect just a hint of animosity with that "sign off"?

And more excuses. When you lose an argument blame it on something else. Like "misinterpretation". For a group that claims to be the only medium for the Yahweh Spook, you sure do get alot of stuff wrong, and your Spook sure does seem to lead you off on weird tangents, and doomsday prophecy making that end up making you guys look like, well a false prophecy making doomsday cult.

Why on earth would the Yahweh spook do that to you... Oh... wait... It's a "test of faith". Ah I see. It makes sense. Beliefs based upon nothing require nothing for them to be proven so in the end you are left holding a whole lot of nothing.

Enjoy Finland.

Hawkingfan · 05-15-2003, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Appius
Well, for one the reason God does what he does at the time he chooses is embodied in Romans:
For when we were yet without strength, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly (Rom 5:6)

This means nothing. The quote is composed of nothing but two assertions, appeals to emotion, and vague and subjective statements.

Quote:

So the reaons Christ came when he did was because it was the right time.[/B]

And this is no different. It is an assertion, vague and subjective.

Quote:

In short, he will come again when the time is right, and since men do not have the insight of God we do not know at what time.[/B]

I'll have to add this to my list of absurd arguments. Saying "when the time is right" does not answer the question "When will god return?" It is an excuse and is so vague that it is constructed to only perpetually cover the person for any incorrect predictions. It is no different than when a psychic tells a woman,
"You're pregnant, aren't you?"
"No."
"Well, you will be someday when the time is right."
And 10 years later the woman is pregnant and says, "Wow, the psychic was right!"

Quote:

Also, since God is eternal time means nothing to him-that is why a thousands years to us is like a day to him.[/B]

This idea is inconsistent with itself. If god is "eternal time", a thousand years would not feel like anything, not even a day.

Quote:

The oppression of the innocent people? Are you speaking about the church commanding people what to do such as going to confessions, following the commandments and such? [/B]

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

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05-15-2003, 11:51 AM	#34
YHWHtruth Guest Posts: n/a	Jehovah's Witnesses realize that through prayer, study, and meditation on God's Word we can better understand Jehovah's purposes. There have been times when the Scriptures and world conditions may have seemed to point to the fulfillment of certain Bible prophecies. Yet, as time went on, and the light from God's word became brighter, adjustments were gladly made in order to conform to the teachings of the Bible. (Pr 4: 18) The disciples of Jesus were faced with a similar situation, as reflected in the account recorded in John 21 :20-23: "Upon turning about Peter saw the disciple whom Jesus used to love following, the one who at the evening meal had also leaned back upon his breast and said: "Lord, who is the one betraying you?" Accordingly, when he caught sight of him, Peter said to Jesus: "Lord, what will this man do?" Jesus said to him: "If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me." In consequence, this saying went out among the brothers, that the disciple would not die. However, Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but: "If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you?" Here we see how individuals can innocently misunderstand something. Peter simply wanted to know what responsibility John would have. Yet, Jesus told him not worry about it; rather, he should concern himself with his own responsibility of 'feeding the sheep. ' ( Joh 21:15-17) Nevertheless, Peter interpreted Jesus ' words to mean that John would never die. He even began telling this to others. But as we can see from John's words recorded above, Jesus did not say that John would never die. Did this make Peter a false prophet in the eyes of his brothers? No. In fact, he wrote two letters that contain vital, prophetic information for all Christians. His motives were good; he simply did not understand Jesus' words at the time. The same is true of Jehovah's Witnesses today. Their motives have never been self-serving; they have always used the Scriptures in an effort to substantiate their teachings. ( 1 Th 5 :21) And when they are wrong they make the necessary changes in hopes of bringing their views in closer conformity with that of God's Word. THE MAIN FOCUS of the Witnesses is still the proclamation of the good news of God's Kingdom, the royal presence of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the soon-to-be- vindicated name of the Sovereign God, Jehovah! Thank you for your time. I will now be leaving to finland for 3 weeks Take care all of you, including you FEL. Max

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