Freethought & Rationalism Archive

xeren · 08-03-2002, 04:39 PM

This is an off-shoot from another topic from this section, but it basically took over the discussion, so i decided to start a new one.

Regarding Jesus' supposed appearance to 500 men in the NT, and why it could not be a lie:

King Arthur states:

Quote:

If some dork lied when they put in writing that about 500 people saw Jesus after his resurrection, then surely there was at least one reasonable person to write "No, it did not happen that way."

Anyone have any replies to this?

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: xeren ]</p>

Amen-Moses · 08-03-2002, 04:47 PM

Apart from you can't prove a negative what is to answer?

Amen-Moses

King Arthur · 08-03-2002, 04:54 PM

My point was: How did he know for sure that this statement was a "lie"? I don't think he can. Therefore, his statement comes across rather dogmatic and dismissive. Is Vorkosigan trying to be unbiased or is he simply bashing?

xeren · 08-03-2002, 05:03 PM

King Arthur,

I don't care about your fight! I'm sorry Vork is being mean to you.

I started a new topic to get away from this and back to the issue.

Now: back to the issue.

Anyone?

Amen-Moses · 08-03-2002, 05:09 PM

Alrighty I'll be less subtle, how can we prove someone didn't write "No, it did not happen that way."?

Amen-Moses

philechat · 08-03-2002, 05:13 PM

According to a rather recent news (6 months ago), China Times records that more than 1000 Chinese people in Shan-Xi saw Buddha appeared on top of the clouds, when the Buddha finger arrived a Buddhist temple.

Another miracle, so praise Buddha!

(Hey...KA, it's more recent, and there are more witnesses!)

And then there is the miracle claims and martyrdom of the Cult of Falun Gong in China...

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]</p>

King Arthur · 08-03-2002, 05:16 PM

Screw it. You guys are totally lost. I'll just continue this on the other thread where I please. Topics diverge. That one will too.

GarColga · 08-03-2002, 06:07 PM

These early Christian writings weren't published in newspapers so that someone could write a letter to the editor to make a rebuttal. I'd bet that very very few people, if any, who were contemporaneous with the alleged events described by the four evangelists ever saw or heard of any of the Gospels.

If there ever was such a document saying "no, it didn't happen this way", it's not conceivable that the Christian monks would continue making copies of it.

Vorkosigan · 08-03-2002, 11:21 PM

I have already replied to this. Twice. No points being responded to. Nor was I mean to KA. Here is KA's first response to my simple remarks:

"You are so stinkin' dogmatic, Vorkosigan. You don't have to be. There is no threat here to your life. Wake up and smell the coffee. You can be critical without being dogmatic. Try, "Well, 500 is probably too many", or "well, maybe someone else appeared to them whom they thought was Jesus". Why a lie??"

My initial comment was terse; there was nothing overbearing or insulting in it. I said it was a "common missionary lie" and that there was no evidence for it. Both of these statements are true; such lies are typical of missionaries, and no one knows of any evidence that would support Paul's claim. How that could be construed as being "mean" to King Arthur is a mystery to me.

In any case, it is now over to KA in the other thread, unless he wishes to copy the answer here.

Vorkosigan

King Arthur · 08-04-2002, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan:
<strong>I have already replied to this. Twice. No points being responded to. Nor was I mean to KA."</strong>

Oh come on, Vorkosigan! You're mean to me and you know it! Obviously everyone can see it!

There is nothing of substance in what you say Vorkosigan. You can only call something like that a lie if you are highly biased and only want to make it sound bad.

You already said there is no way you can know for sure! Once again, how can you know for sure that whoever wrote that down didn't really know of a crowd of 500 or so that saw someone they thought was Jesus??? You can't.

I'm just trying to help you with your dogmatism.

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08-03-2002, 04:47 PM	#2
Amen-Moses Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Portsmouth, England Posts: 4,652	Apart from you can't prove a negative what is to answer? Amen-Moses

08-03-2002, 04:54 PM	#3
King Arthur Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Camelot Posts: 290	My point was: How did he know for sure that this statement was a "lie"? I don't think he can. Therefore, his statement comes across rather dogmatic and dismissive. Is Vorkosigan trying to be unbiased or is he simply bashing?

08-03-2002, 05:03 PM	#4
xeren Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Place Posts: 285	King Arthur, I don't care about your fight! I'm sorry Vork is being mean to you. I started a new topic to get away from this and back to the issue. Now: back to the issue. Anyone?

08-03-2002, 05:09 PM	#5
Amen-Moses Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Portsmouth, England Posts: 4,652	Alrighty I'll be less subtle, how can we prove someone didn't write "No, it did not happen that way."? Amen-Moses

08-03-2002, 05:13 PM	#6
philechat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mind of the Other Posts: 886	According to a rather recent news (6 months ago), China Times records that more than 1000 Chinese people in Shan-Xi saw Buddha appeared on top of the clouds, when the Buddha finger arrived a Buddhist temple. Another miracle, so praise Buddha! (Hey...KA, it's more recent, and there are more witnesses!) And then there is the miracle claims and martyrdom of the Cult of Falun Gong in China... [ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]</p>

08-03-2002, 05:16 PM	#7
King Arthur Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Camelot Posts: 290	Screw it. You guys are totally lost. I'll just continue this on the other thread where I please. Topics diverge. That one will too.

08-03-2002, 06:07 PM	#8
GarColga Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boise, Idaho, USA Posts: 57	These early Christian writings weren't published in newspapers so that someone could write a letter to the editor to make a rebuttal. I'd bet that very very few people, if any, who were contemporaneous with the alleged events described by the four evangelists ever saw or heard of any of the Gospels. If there ever was such a document saying "no, it didn't happen this way", it's not conceivable that the Christian monks would continue making copies of it.

08-03-2002, 11:21 PM	#9
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	I have already replied to this. Twice. No points being responded to. Nor was I mean to KA. Here is KA's first response to my simple remarks: "You are so stinkin' dogmatic, Vorkosigan. You don't have to be. There is no threat here to your life. Wake up and smell the coffee. You can be critical without being dogmatic. Try, "Well, 500 is probably too many", or "well, maybe someone else appeared to them whom they thought was Jesus". Why a lie??" My initial comment was terse; there was nothing overbearing or insulting in it. I said it was a "common missionary lie" and that there was no evidence for it. Both of these statements are true; such lies are typical of missionaries, and no one knows of any evidence that would support Paul's claim. How that could be construed as being "mean" to King Arthur is a mystery to me. In any case, it is now over to KA in the other thread, unless he wishes to copy the answer here. Vorkosigan

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