Freethought & Rationalism Archive

bonduca · 03-09-2002, 07:07 PM

sorry about that, Hamlet-not, I was editing.

see above.

03-10-2002, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bonduca:

"The Jews can look after themselves," pretty much sums up his concern for them.

But Jews must take care of themselves because they cannot have a homeland. The nation Israel is to be found in their own personal unity with God. Is-ra-el means one with God and the homecoming of a Jew into this nation Israel is independant of a national boundry and must take place outside Israel or their could not be a "homecoming."

Edited to add that "Jews can take care of themselves" is a compliment just as that it was the Jews and the Jews only that crucified Jesus because that is proof of a well functionning mythology wherein the Law and the Law only is effective in the salvation of man. If I was a Jew I would be so immensely proud of these compliments that I would be brown-nosing Catholics forever

. . . unless, of course you are one of those fundies who thinks that there will be a universal second coming of Christ and a global resurrection of the death. In that is the case you better start killing some Palestinians because Christ may need an airstrip to get to America.

[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]

Jayhawker Soule · 03-10-2002, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:
Edited to add that "Jews can take care of themselves" is a compliment just as that it was the Jews and the Jews only that crucified Jesus ...

<snip>

... unless, of course you are one of those fundies ... In that is the case you better start killing some Palestinians because Christ may need an airstrip to get to America.

[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]

What disgusting crap. Your "sense of humor" speaks volumes ...

bonduca · 03-10-2002, 10:25 AM

Amos, Pacelli was referring to German citizens who also happened to be Jews. They felt Germany was their homeland. Sorry, this does not strike me as amusing or even make much sense. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

03-10-2002, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bonduca:
Amos, Pacelli was referring to German citizens who also happened to be Jews. They felt Germany was their homeland. Sorry, this does not strike me as amusing or even make much sense.

Yes I understand. Jews must be citizen of a foreign land before they can become one-with-God (Israel). Israel is a state of mind and if Jews are alienated from this state of mind they must be in exile before their homecoming. Their homecoming is not a physical journey but a spiritual journey.

Does this sound anti semetic? I hope not.

03-10-2002, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt:


What disgusting crap. Your "sense of humor" speaks volumes ...

Oops, sorry.

bonduca · 03-10-2002, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Yes I understand. Jews must be citizen of a foreign land before they can become one-with-God (Israel). Israel is a state of mind and if Jews are alienated from this state of mind they must be in exile before their homecoming. Their homecoming is not a physical journey but a spiritual journey.

Does this sound anti semetic? I hope not.

It sounds somewhat garbled, with all due respect. Many German Jews thought of themselves as Germans. They wanted to live in their homes in Germany, not be persecuted and exterminated by their own countrymen. Pacelli's comment was, IMHO, inexcusable as well as anti-semetic. Sadly, it wasn't the first time he has been quoted as saying something I found rather shocking and unbecoming in a man in his position of leadership.

So, I'm afraid I still don't understand what point you are trying to make.

[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]

03-10-2002, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bonduca:


So, I'm afraid I still don't understand what point you are trying to make.

[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]

But for many Jews Germany was their homeland and Holland was the homeland of other Jews and they were either good German or good Dutch citizens and had every right to be there.

My comment was re "the Jews can take care of themselves" as being the proper point of view towards a religion that must live in exile and there come to salvation. By this I mean to indicate that the comment itself does not suggest anti-semitism any more that that it was the Canadians who were the first to sign the Treaty of Luxemburg.

HelenM · 03-10-2002, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Cipriani:
The oral tradition is what the Church has done or believed everywhere and at all times. The written Church tradition is the Bible as well as patristic writings (1st through 6th centuries). The magisterial tradition is the de fide decisions the Church has officially promulgated via her 20 ecumenical councils and ex cathedra papal pronouncements.

Ok, thanks for explaining those. And you accept all of it up until about 40 years ago? And you think that your freedom in interpreting the Bible is no more than Catholics always had?

The "one authority" of the Protestants' Bible is no authority. For it was through the Catholic Church's authority that the Bible was authorized as the Bible.

That church you call 'Catholic' could also be called 'the Protestant Church before it had to go off on its own due to heresy in the church generally'. Just like you now reject the last 40 years of Catholic pronouncements - if I'm understanding you right (and if not, I apologize)?

1200 years later the Protestants removed old testament books that the Jews rejected and tossed out a few New Testament books for good measure and claimed the book as their own.

Please tell me what NT books Catholics have and Prots don't, in their Bibles, because I'm not aware of any difference there, myself. I thought all the books in the Catholic Bible that aren't in the Prot one are OT books. As it were

. Not only that but they don't have the same 'status' do they, as the OT and NT books that the Prots accept? Or am I thinking wrongly about that? I thought I heard that once but who knows...

To the degree that they have a bible as their authority, it is actually through the Catholic Church's authority that they have that authority.

As I mentioned, you are referring to the One True Church that Martin Luther centuries later had to break off from, because of heresy

. In those days it was one church. It makes no more sense to call the church of the first few centuries after Christ "Catholic" and not Protestant anymore than it would make sense to argue your parents are yours only and not also the parents of your siblings (if you have any). But of course your siblings are not you (if you have any

)

Thanks as always, for your comments.

love
Helen

<a href="http://home.att.net/~shmildenhall/writings/course.html" target="_blank">Caught Between Two Views of Jesus: A Modern Meditation </a>

bonduca · 03-10-2002, 03:20 PM

Amos, surely you do not mean to suggest that allowing the Jews to be persecuted to the point of near extermination was simply allowing them to fulfill their spiritual destiny?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-09-2002, 07:07 PM	#201
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	sorry about that, Hamlet-not, I was editing. see above.

03-10-2002, 10:25 AM	#204
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	Amos, Pacelli was referring to German citizens who also happened to be Jews. They felt Germany was their homeland. Sorry, this does not strike me as amusing or even make much sense. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

03-10-2002, 03:20 PM	#210
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	Amos, surely you do not mean to suggest that allowing the Jews to be persecuted to the point of near extermination was simply allowing them to fulfill their spiritual destiny?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.