Answerer

Guys, this begs another question, "Is the omnipotence of God subjective?"

HRG

But they never disagree. It is not within their nature, and it would be illogical to expect them to act against their nature, wouldn't it ?

(See, I have learned to wield the Argument from God's Nature as well as any apologist! )

So a perfect being lacks neither unbounded positive nor unbounded negative charge, neither total transparency nor total absorption, neither boundless pride nor boundless humility, and - before I forget - has perfect dysentery ?

If you are going to tell me that perfection only excludes lack of all positive properties, please tell me a definition of "positive property" which is not dependent on someone's subjective evaluation of what's positive. For instance, a subcommander of Dzhingis Khan would consider mercy to be reserved for weaklings; thus a perfect being must be without any trace of mercy.
Come on. Even if I cannot suffer or be gravely harmed, I need not be a stone.

In addition, I do not need to know the (or an) optimal solution to argue that the current situation can be improved.

Regards,
HRG.

7thangel

Not really, Tom. Because I speak of evil as according to God's standard. The thing is that we might have a contradictory beliefs and claim to be perfect, because we have different standards.

I can only deal with saying that imperfection makes one suffer evil, primarily because taking into details about imperfection itself will make us disagree with each other. Just like omnipotence, I do not think some really want to grasp what omnipotence is all about, nor are they able to.

7thangel

I guess I really wasn't clear. Thanks for givng me a chance to further explain.

Is there a lie, that God can tell, that it has no purpose, or reason to achieve a good end for Him to say so? No, actually such lie does not exist for it is not in His nature. Such lie will never happen on God's actions. So God did not limit His power, because He doesn't have the ability, nor potence to make such kind of lies.

What I was trying to say is that the actions you thought God voluntary limited in himself because of a certain reason, is actually none existant in Him. Because those things are not on His nature, or of his being.

Good for me that you are an atheist, I guess.

No, I mean that the powers should exist. Just like when I say God cannot lie. He did not actually limited himself not to lie, rather He " do not" really lie.

Please be patient, it is coming soon.

The truth, I cannot really tell. I think the point is that we do not consider all possibilities to be true. And you speak of possibilities to be true. One thing is that we cannot really compare man from God. Man change, God does not change. God do not lie, and that doesn't change.

Hawkingfan

Since the bible is supposed to be the "word of god" and it has hundreds of inconsistencies, then that can be considered lying.

Also, God condoned lying spirits and lied himself as recorded all throughout the bible, sometimes arbitrarily and sometimes in order to condemn people:

Exodus 32
14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

Numbers 14
30 Not one of you will enter the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun.

1 Kings 22
21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD . 'Go and do it.'
23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

2 Thessalonians 2
11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Ezekiel 14
9 " 'And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel.

1 Kings 22
23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

Jeremiah 20
7 O LORD , you deceived me, and I was deceived;
you overpowered me and prevailed.
I am ridiculed all day long;
everyone mocks me.

25At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Mark 4
11He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12so that,
" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'[1] "

John 5
31"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.
John 8
14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going.

John 13
36Simon Peter asked him, "Lord, where are you going?"
Jesus replied, "Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later."
John 14
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
John 16
5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?'

JN 7:2-10 Jesus tells his brothers that he is not going to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Tabernacles, then later goes secretly by himself. (Note: The words "not yet" were added to some versions at JN 7:8 in order to alleviate this problem. The context at JN 7:10 makes the deception clear, however.)

7thangel

For God to create the same likeness in everything, is actually to create Himself. If God is everything, then God cannot create more than everything. It is a flaw of reality.

Two Gods cannot exists having the nature of almighty. One God cannot be almighty, because he is not mightier, but rather, equal to the other God. For two Gods two exist cannot be a reality.

God cannot be a fool and a wise at the same time, right? The two natures cannot exist in one entity at the same time, in reality. So when I say God does not lack, it does not mean that God is a fool, and does not lack foolishness.

7thangel

Hawkingfan,

It's my fault for misunderstanding me. On the post, I mentioned the kind of lie that God would not do, which is, lie that will not have a purpose, and will not serve to met a good end. I was thinking that the readers would reference the kind of lie I previously pointed in that same post.

I don't think that I need to answer the verses you have posted because some of them may have not the specific words to support of their good purposes, and reasons why made. Nevertheless, I believe they have a good purpose, and that they will serve to reach a desired good goal.

Mageth

So god does have, and exercise, the power to lie when it serves his purpose?

Isn't that generally why anyone would lie?

Hawkingfan

7th,

Then just answer one of them. How about this one?:

John 13
36Simon Peter asked him, "Lord, where are you going?"
Jesus replied, "Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later."
John 14
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
John 16
5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?'

In the last verse Jesus (who is omnipotent and omniscient) says that he was not asked a question that he was clearly asked twice. Jesus's statement in John 16:5 is a total lie.

7thangel

Such rock does not exist in reality.

You see flaws because you added the illogical when you speak of the word "all." So, what can you expect?

Actually that is true. Omnipotence really speak of all the potence that exists in God's nature. It is not making all the things you can imagine. Thank you, you helped me more lucid about omnipotence.

Correct.

Again, Yes.

No, because we have further agreed that there is a qualitative model by which we assign unto perfection. The same actually when we speak of omnipotence. So if we hypothetically assign that a ten headed creature is perfect, then a three headed is not perfect and so thus a twenty headed one. The problem is that you jumped outside the concept of our model about what is "lacking."

Again, if we hypothetically assign the perfect image to be coffee, then whatever makes a coffee are the only things we refer that the perfect should not lack. You cannot say there is no meat so it is not perfect, and therefore not coffee. Doesn't make sense right?

Oohh, now I get it! Omnipotence is not actually infinite. And I guess that is the implications of omnipotence by the atheists, and I guess some of theists. This is misconception of what omnipotence is all about. My understanding is that I call it infinite because I can not know the extent, and the boundaries of all things by which God's potence is applied. But yet, it is not really infinite.

Thanks for the questions, Diana.

Sincerely,
7thangel