Freethought & Rationalism Archive

butswana · 09-24-2002, 09:06 AM

I've heard numerous tales of how chiropractors have cured a laundry list of aliments. On a message board my wife frequents, people have had infants cured of diaper rash to asthma.
When this guy that I work with recounted his first visit to me, it sounded suspiciously like a cold reading. His arthritis, head aches and screaming shits have ceased since he began going.

MortalWombat · 09-24-2002, 09:17 AM

See <a href="http://www.chirobase.org/" target="_blank">Chirobase.org</a>, "A Skeptical Guide to Chiropractic History, Theories, and Current Practices." Note that one of the operators of the website is a chiropractor himself.

Dr Rick · 09-24-2002, 10:25 AM

Chiropractics may help your aching back or neck. Chiropractics has been shown through objective, controlled clinical trials to confer benefit in certain muscular conditons such as low back and neck strains.

Objective studies have also found that chiroparactics offers no benefit beyond that of placebo in specific nonmuscular conditions such as asthma (see below), and there is no good clinical data to show that any nonmuscular condition is improved by chiropractic intervention.

Here's excerpts from a medical journal editorial and a couple of abstracts:

What Role for Chiropractic in Health Care?
New England Journal of Medicine 339:1074-1075 October 8, 1998 Number 15
Paul G. Shekelle, M.D., Ph.D.
West Los Angeles Veterans Affairs Medical Center

Quote:

On September 18, 1895, Daniel David Palmer manipulated the spine of Harvey Lilliard, allegedly restoring Mr. Lilliard's sense of hearing and founding the practice of chiropractic. From this beginning, despite decades of persecution from government and organized medicine, chiropractors have become the third largest group of health professionals in the United States (after physicians and dentists) who have primary contact with patients. Chiropractors are licensed to practice in all 50 states, Medicare covers chiropractic care for radiographically proved subluxation of the vertebral spine, 45 states have state-mandated benefits for chiropractic, and an increasing number of insurance plans and managed-care organizations are offering chiropractic benefits.1 In the last decade of the 20th century, chiropractic has begun to shed its status as a marginal or deviant approach to care and is becoming more mainstream. At this juncture, it seems appropriate to ask what the role of chiropractic should be in health care. There is a debate, both within the chiropractic profession and outside of it, about whether chiropractic should be considered a nonsurgical musculoskeletal specialty or a broadly based alternative to medicine...What does the scientific literature tell us about the efficacy of spinal manipulation? That spinal manipulation is a somewhat effective symptomatic therapy for some patients with acute low back pain is, I believe, no longer in dispute.4 The study by Cherkin and colleagues in this issue of the Journal again confirms this finding.5 Cherkin et al. found that patients with low back pain who were randomly assigned to chiropractic manipulation had a small, marginally significant improvement in symptoms at four weeks as compared with patients who received no therapy other than an educational booklet.5...The appropriateness of spinal manipulation for nonmusculoskeletal conditions is the most divisive issue among medical physicians and chiropractors. Physicians generally accept the role of chiropractic in treating selected musculoskeletal problems but adamantly oppose its use for treating a diverse array of disorders, such as hypertension, asthma, and otitis media, despite numerous case reports from chiropractors of improvement in these conditions with spinal manipulation. Hindering any rational discussion has been the paucity of data from randomized, controlled trials. Therefore, the study by Balon and colleagues, which also appears in this issue of the Journal [see below], is particularly welcome.

These courageous investigators tested the effect of spinal manipulation as an adjunct to medical therapy for children with stable asthma and found no significant difference between groups in terms of physiologic outcomes, symptoms, quality of life, or patients' satisfaction. Thus, they concluded that the addition of chiropractic spinal manipulation to medical therapy had no effect on the control of childhood asthma

What is the role of chiropractic in health care? In 1979 Dr. Arnold Relman wrote an editorial for the Journal entitled "Chiropractic: Recognized but Unproved."15 Nearly 20 years later there appears to be little evidence to support the value of spinal manipulation for nonmusculoskeletal conditions. For this reason, I think it is currently inappropriate to consider chiropractic as a broad-based alternative to traditional medical care. However, for some musculoskeletal conditions, chiropractic care does provide some benefit to some patients. The challenge for chiropractors is to demonstrate that they can achieve this benefit at a cost that patients or health insurers are willing to bear.

A Comparison of Active and Simulated Chiropractic Manipulation as Adjunctive Treatment for Childhood Asthma

Jeffrey Balon, M.D., Peter D. Aker, D.C., Edward R. Crowther, D.C., Clark Danielson, M.P.A., P. Gerard Cox, M.B., Denise O'Shaughnessy, Corinne Walker, Charles H. Goldsmith, Ph.D., Eric Duku, M.Sc., and Malcolm R. Sears, M.B.

"Background Chiropractic spinal manipulation has been reported to be of benefit in nonmusculoskeletal conditions, including asthma.

Methods We conducted a randomized, controlled trial of chiropractic spinal manipulation for children with mild or moderate asthma. After a three-week base-line evaluation period, 91 children who had continuing symptoms of asthma despite usual medical therapy were randomly assigned to receive either active or simulated chiropractic manipulation for four months. None had previously received chiropractic care. Each subject was treated by 1 of 11 participating chiropractors, selected by the family according to location. The primary outcome measure was the change from base line in the peak expiratory flow, measured in the morning, before the use of a bronchodilator, at two and four months. Except for the treating chiropractor and one investigator (who was not involved in assessing outcomes), all participants remained fully blinded to treatment assignment throughout the study.

Results Eighty children (38 in the active-treatment group and 42 in the simulated-treatment group) had outcome data that could be evaluated. There were small increases (7 to 12 liters per minute) in peak expiratory flow in the morning and the evening in both treatment groups, with no significant differences between the groups in the degree of change from base line (morning peak expiratory flow, P=0.49 at two months and P=0.82 at four months). Symptoms of asthma and use of -agonists decreased and the quality of life increased in both groups, with no significant differences between the groups. There were no significant changes in spirometric measurements or airway responsiveness.

Conclusions In children with mild or moderate asthma, the addition of chiropractic spinal manipulation to usual medical care provided no benefit."

Spine 1996 Aug 1;21(15):1746-59;

Manipulation and mobilization of the cervical spine. A systematic review of the literature.

Hurwitz EL, Aker PD, Adams AH, Meeker WC, Shekelle PG.
RAND, Santa Monica, CA, USA.

"STUDY DESIGN: Cervical spine manipulation and mobilization were reviewed in an analysis of the literature from 1966 to the present. OBJECTIVES: To assess the evidence for the efficacy and complications of cervical spine manipulation and mobilization for the treatment of neck pain and headache. SUMMARY OF BACKGROUND DATA: Although recent research has demonstrated the efficacy of spinal manipulation for some patients with low back pain, little is known about its efficacy for neck pain and headache. METHODS: A structured search of four computerized bibliographic data bases was performed to identify articles on the efficacy and complications of cervical spine manual therapy. Data were summarized, and randomized controlled trials were critically appraised for study quality. The confidence profile method of meta-analysis was used to estimate the effect of spinal manipulation on patients' pain status. RESULTS: Two of three randomized controlled trials showed a short-term benefit for cervical mobilization for acute neck pain. The combination of three of the randomized controlled trials comparing spinal manipulation with other therapies for patients with subacute or chronic neck pain showed an improvement on a 100-mm visual analogue scale of pain at 3 weeks of 12.6 mm (95% confidence interval, -0.15, 25.5) for manipulation compared with muscle relaxants or usual medical care. The highest quality randomized controlled trial demonstrated that spinal manipulation provided short-term relief for patients with tension-type headache. The complication rate for cervical spine manipulation is estimated to be between 5 and 10 per 10 million manipulations. CONCLUSIONS: Cervical spine manipulation and mobilization probably provide at least short-term benefits for some patients with neck pain and headaches. Although the complication rate of manipulation is small, the potential for adverse outcomes must be considered because of the possibility of permanent impairment or death."

Fam Med2000
Does spinal manipulation have specific treatment effects?
E Ernst
Department of Complementary Medicine, School of Postgraduate Medicine and Health Sciences, University of Exeter, UK.

"Objective. To investigate the question whether or not spinal manipulation is associated with specific treatment effects.

Methods. Literature searches were carried out in Medline, Embase and The Cochrane Library. All sham-controlled trials of spinal manipulation were considered.

Results. Seven such studies were located. Their methodological quality was variable but three trials adhered to the highest standards of scientific rigour. Collectively these data do not show therapeutic effects beyond placebo. In particular, the three most rigorous studies were negative.

Conclusion. The few sham-controlled trials that do exist show that this methodology is, in principle, applicable also to spinal manipulation. The results available to date suggest that the therapeutic success of spinal manipulation is largely due to a placebo effect."

Rick

Jamie_L · 09-24-2002, 10:26 AM

I did a little reading about chiropractors a while back when I got a nagging back injury. The link Mortal Wombat provided is a good site. My basic take was that there can be some benefits to chiropractic techniques, but that most chiropractors are not to be trusted. It seems like the large majority of chiropractors make wild claims that hold no merit, and most of the grandiose stories about chiros are B.S. Like cold reading, much of the supposed healing is probably supplied by the patient themselves either as a placebo response or in the form of belief in healing that doesn't actually occur.

However, there are a small number of chrios out there who recognize the limitations of what they offer, and present a simple, honest service. When I went looking for one, though, I had no luck.

Jamie

Ab_Normal · 09-24-2002, 10:49 AM

I saw definite, but very slow, results from chiropractic care. My CP is prone to the grandiose claims ("Germs don't cause colds, subluxations do") which I ignore. I also ignore his demands that I schedule more regular appointments. Once every two months or so keeps me out of severe pain (i.e. above my chronic pain threshold.

)

(edited because I shouldn't try to type and eat lunch simultaneously)

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Ab_Normal ]</p>

Corwin · 09-24-2002, 10:55 AM

Chiropractic medicine deals with spinal and neck alignments. It extends to more than just the back... (siattica, for example, is felt in the leg, but the cause of the pain is actually spinal in origin... the siattic nerve coming out of the spine.)

Any reputable chiropracter is pretty realistic about what they do, and how it works. It also has benefits over 'traditional' medicine in some forms of spinal injury. (Herniated discs, for example. Surgery is an option, but it's only a temporary fix. The problem does come back. Chiro frequently helps people deal with the injury, since it can't actually be fixed surgically... just temporarily alleviated.)

As far as 'we can cure any disease' is concerned, well... you always have some nuts out there.

Kosh · 09-24-2002, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rbochnermd:
<strong>
Objective studies have also found that chiroparactics offers no benefit beyond that of placebo in specific nonmuscular conditions such as asthma (see below), and there is no good clinical data to show that any nonmuscular condition is improved by chiropractic intervention.

</strong>

"The AMA will do ANYTHING to protect their little monopoly..." Adam, Licensed Chiropractor and resident quack, "Northern Exposure"

My wife used to work for a back cracker. I got some benefit from it after subluxating (oooh) my mid back lifting a project in the woodshop.

The biggest problem I see with them is, they want you on the subscription plan... forever.

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Kosh ]</p>

Dr Rick · 09-24-2002, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh:
[QB]"The AMA will do ANYTHING to protect their little monopoly"

I'm not a member of the AMA; hell, I don't even know the secret handshake.

Rick

Glory · 09-24-2002, 11:52 AM

I will throw my little anecdote in the mix.

I went to the home of some friends of mother. They had three cats to which I was allergic. After about thirty minutes it became clear that I wasn't going to be able to stay for lunch if my asthma wasn't addressed. My medication wasn't working very well. I told the host the problem. He was a chiropracter and he said he could take care of me. He stood behind me, put his arms around my waist and did something. It looked as though he had given me the Heimlich maneuver but the effect was quite different. I felt a trenmendous intake of breath and was able to breath very well for about two hours. After that it wore off and I had to leave. He said that he couldn't do this trick again for about 48 hours. He didn't want to strain anything or something. Anyway, my theory is that people think conditions like asthma can be treated with chiropractic but the effects are very temporary. It amounts to little more than parlour trick.

Glory

Bree · 09-25-2002, 11:47 AM

Look for Palmer Chiropractic graduates. My grandfather is at the forefront of the Palmer method (he learnt from the best!) and I grew up around him and his students.

09-24-2002, 09:06 AM	#1
butswana Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,804	chiropractor or chiroquacktor? I've heard numerous tales of how chiropractors have cured a laundry list of aliments. On a message board my wife frequents, people have had infants cured of diaper rash to asthma. When this guy that I work with recounted his first visit to me, it sounded suspiciously like a cold reading. His arthritis, head aches and screaming shits have ceased since he began going.

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09-24-2002, 09:17 AM	#2
MortalWombat Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: St Louis area Posts: 3,458	See <a href="http://www.chirobase.org/" target="_blank">Chirobase.org</a>, "A Skeptical Guide to Chiropractic History, Theories, and Current Practices." Note that one of the operators of the website is a chiropractor himself.

09-24-2002, 10:26 AM	#4
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	I did a little reading about chiropractors a while back when I got a nagging back injury. The link Mortal Wombat provided is a good site. My basic take was that there can be some benefits to chiropractic techniques, but that most chiropractors are not to be trusted. It seems like the large majority of chiropractors make wild claims that hold no merit, and most of the grandiose stories about chiros are B.S. Like cold reading, much of the supposed healing is probably supplied by the patient themselves either as a placebo response or in the form of belief in healing that doesn't actually occur. However, there are a small number of chrios out there who recognize the limitations of what they offer, and present a simple, honest service. When I went looking for one, though, I had no luck. Jamie

09-24-2002, 10:49 AM	#5
Ab_Normal Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,842	I saw definite, but very slow, results from chiropractic care. My CP is prone to the grandiose claims ("Germs don't cause colds, subluxations do") which I ignore. I also ignore his demands that I schedule more regular appointments. Once every two months or so keeps me out of severe pain (i.e. above my chronic pain threshold. ) (edited because I shouldn't try to type and eat lunch simultaneously) [ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Ab_Normal ]</p>

09-24-2002, 10:55 AM	#6
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Chiropractic medicine deals with spinal and neck alignments. It extends to more than just the back... (siattica, for example, is felt in the leg, but the cause of the pain is actually spinal in origin... the siattic nerve coming out of the spine.) Any reputable chiropracter is pretty realistic about what they do, and how it works. It also has benefits over 'traditional' medicine in some forms of spinal injury. (Herniated discs, for example. Surgery is an option, but it's only a temporary fix. The problem does come back. Chiro frequently helps people deal with the injury, since it can't actually be fixed surgically... just temporarily alleviated.) As far as 'we can cure any disease' is concerned, well... you always have some nuts out there.

09-24-2002, 11:52 AM	#9
Glory Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: b Posts: 673	I will throw my little anecdote in the mix. I went to the home of some friends of mother. They had three cats to which I was allergic. After about thirty minutes it became clear that I wasn't going to be able to stay for lunch if my asthma wasn't addressed. My medication wasn't working very well. I told the host the problem. He was a chiropracter and he said he could take care of me. He stood behind me, put his arms around my waist and did something. It looked as though he had given me the Heimlich maneuver but the effect was quite different. I felt a trenmendous intake of breath and was able to breath very well for about two hours. After that it wore off and I had to leave. He said that he couldn't do this trick again for about 48 hours. He didn't want to strain anything or something. Anyway, my theory is that people think conditions like asthma can be treated with chiropractic but the effects are very temporary. It amounts to little more than parlour trick. Glory

09-25-2002, 11:47 AM	#10
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Look for Palmer Chiropractic graduates. My grandfather is at the forefront of the Palmer method (he learnt from the best!) and I grew up around him and his students.

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