Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Oolon Colluphid · 07-23-2003, 08:27 AM

Hi folks

Browsing through Barnes, Calow and Olive�s The Invertebrates: a new synthesis on the loo last night, as I am wont to do -- we have the most intellectual-looking bathroom in the country

-- I came across another bit for �my� list.

Apparently, a whole eight orders of insects have species in which the adults do not feed, and hence their mouthparts are vestigial.

(Just for the hard-of-thinking, if they�re listening: please explain why the allegedly intelligent designer designed these insects to have mouthparts they do not need. It�s not like the mouthparts are used in the larvae: go look up metamorphosis!)

Unfortunately, Barnes and co don�t say which orders, nor which species. I like to be specific, and ideally I want to find some pictures... but can�t, till I know which critters I�m looking for.

I�m guessing Ephemeroptera (mayflies) are one of the groups, but does anyone know what the others are (and if mayflies is one of them)?

Cheers, Oolon

Duvenoy · 07-23-2003, 08:54 AM

Um, just off the top of my head, try cicadas. We've had a pretty good 'hatch' this year and I'm finding them dying on the ground. My three resident copperheads devour them as fast as I put then in the cages.

Remarkable insects. One of our local species lives as a nymph underground for 17 years. When they emerge, they only live long enough to mate, then die, possibly from starvation. They too, are unable to feed.

A beautiful animal with sloppy design? I'd say so, although the coppers might not agree.

doov

Lobstrosity · 07-23-2003, 08:54 AM

Well, I don't consider myself hard of thinking, but I do consider myself ignorant of entomology, so could you possibly put up with a stupid question? Ok, here goes: What the hell do you mean the adults don't feed?!? Do they just live incredibly short lives? Do they live off of stored body-fat (or some insect equivalent)? Why, for the love of all that is holy, do they not eat??? Eh, I bet creationists just write this one off as loss of "information" due to the fall...poor bugs can't hardly no longer eat because of Eve. In all seriousness, though, it sounds like a rather interesting strategy--almost like in this instance evolution favored a direct go-mate-no-time-for-food-you-have-to-mate-right-now strategy in which you don't live long but you don't waste any precious time doing such trivial non-mating stuff as eating or crapping. Very interesting--certainly something I'd like to know more about!

simian · 07-23-2003, 08:57 AM

Yeah, short lives. Mayflies live about 24 hours as adults. Great feeding time for fish <creationist mode> See how good god's design is, he gave fish a time to feast </creationist mode>.

Simian

Duvenoy · 07-23-2003, 09:07 AM

A mayfly 'hatch' is a sight to behold. Thousands of them dance in the air. In MS, there is a species that might emerge in such numbers that they all but stop traffic.

While we might feel a little bad about them having no working mouth parts, and live so briefly, we need to remember that they lived as nymphs for quite a long time (I've forgotten how long the nymph stage is for mayflies, and, I think, it varies with the species).

doov

Oolon Colluphid · 07-23-2003, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lobstrosity
Ok, here goes: What the hell do you mean the adults don't feed?!?

Dunno. It's what Barnes et al said! <shrug>

I guess it means they don't, like, eat...

Quote:

Do they just live incredibly short lives?

That's why I thought of mayflies.

Quote:

Do they live off of stored body-fat (or some insect equivalent)? Why, for the love of all that is holy, do they not eat??? In all seriousness, though, it sounds like a rather interesting strategy--almost like in this instance evolution favored a direct go-mate-no-time-for-food-you-have-to-mate-right-now strategy in which you don't live long but you don't waste any precious time doing such trivial non-mating stuff as eating or crapping.

That, I expect, is about the size of it. Spend ages eating as a larva, then turn adult and shag till you literally drop. Makes sense.

Quote:

Very interesting--certainly something I'd like to know more about!

I'll look into it in my one old (1970s) insect book tonight. Hey, I might even get some species names there too... but (nudge nudge) anyone kind enough to provide them here would be a jolly nice person...

Oolon

GunnerJ · 07-23-2003, 09:13 AM

Quote:

My three resident copperheads devour them as fast as I put then in the cages.

...you keep copperhead snakes as pets?

Now that's HRADCROE.

Lobstrosity · 07-23-2003, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GunnerJ
...you keep copperhead snakes as pets?

Now that's HRADCROE.

Hmm, I seem to have not registered this the first time. Allow me to also

at Doov.

beastmaster · 07-23-2003, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oolon Colluphid
(Just for the hard-of-thinking, if they�re listening: please explain why the allegedly intelligent designer designed these insects to have mouthparts they do not need. It�s not like the mouthparts are used in the larvae: go look up metamorphosis!)

Call me hard of thinking, but I don't quite get it. So the larvae have mouths, which they use for eating, but have no "mouthparts"? And the adults have mouths and also "mouthparts," but do not eat?

Are there alternative uses for the mouthparts for the adults besides eating - for example, for fighting or for manipulating objects?

Valentine Pontifex · 07-23-2003, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by beastmaster

Are there alternative uses for the mouthparts for the adults besides eating - for example, for fighting or for manipulating objects?

Or possibly getting out of the coccoon?

07-23-2003, 08:27 AM	#1
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	Entomological help please Hi folks Browsing through Barnes, Calow and Olive�s The Invertebrates: a new synthesis on the loo last night, as I am wont to do -- we have the most intellectual-looking bathroom in the country -- I came across another bit for �my� list. Apparently, a whole eight orders of insects have species in which the adults do not feed, and hence their mouthparts are vestigial. (Just for the hard-of-thinking, if they�re listening: please explain why the allegedly intelligent designer designed these insects to have mouthparts they do not need. It�s not like the mouthparts are used in the larvae: go look up metamorphosis!) Unfortunately, Barnes and co don�t say which orders, nor which species. I like to be specific, and ideally I want to find some pictures... but can�t, till I know which critters I�m looking for. I�m guessing Ephemeroptera (mayflies) are one of the groups, but does anyone know what the others are (and if mayflies is one of them)? Cheers, Oolon

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07-23-2003, 08:54 AM	#2
Duvenoy Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Just another hick from the sticks. Posts: 1,108	Um, just off the top of my head, try cicadas. We've had a pretty good 'hatch' this year and I'm finding them dying on the ground. My three resident copperheads devour them as fast as I put then in the cages. Remarkable insects. One of our local species lives as a nymph underground for 17 years. When they emerge, they only live long enough to mate, then die, possibly from starvation. They too, are unable to feed. A beautiful animal with sloppy design? I'd say so, although the coppers might not agree. doov

07-23-2003, 08:54 AM	#3
Lobstrosity Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 719	Well, I don't consider myself hard of thinking, but I do consider myself ignorant of entomology, so could you possibly put up with a stupid question? Ok, here goes: What the hell do you mean the adults don't feed?!? Do they just live incredibly short lives? Do they live off of stored body-fat (or some insect equivalent)? Why, for the love of all that is holy, do they not eat??? Eh, I bet creationists just write this one off as loss of "information" due to the fall...poor bugs can't hardly no longer eat because of Eve. In all seriousness, though, it sounds like a rather interesting strategy--almost like in this instance evolution favored a direct go-mate-no-time-for-food-you-have-to-mate-right-now strategy in which you don't live long but you don't waste any precious time doing such trivial non-mating stuff as eating or crapping. Very interesting--certainly something I'd like to know more about!

07-23-2003, 08:57 AM	#4
simian Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 1,924	Yeah, short lives. Mayflies live about 24 hours as adults. Great feeding time for fish <creationist mode> See how good god's design is, he gave fish a time to feast </creationist mode>. Simian

07-23-2003, 09:07 AM	#5
Duvenoy Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Just another hick from the sticks. Posts: 1,108	A mayfly 'hatch' is a sight to behold. Thousands of them dance in the air. In MS, there is a species that might emerge in such numbers that they all but stop traffic. While we might feel a little bad about them having no working mouth parts, and live so briefly, we need to remember that they lived as nymphs for quite a long time (I've forgotten how long the nymph stage is for mayflies, and, I think, it varies with the species). doov

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