Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David M. Payne · 11-03-2002, 10:40 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Douglas J. Bender:
David,
"Your story reveals that you know very little about God, the Bible, and Christianity. It seems as though you have culled all your information about these subjects from reading the mockery here at Internet Infidels, which is not a particularly objective or accurate source of information about such topics. It would appear that you need to read some of the arguments presented by the 'other' side, namely Christians."

Well Doug, perhaps you can enlighten us all with specifics as to where I went wrong in my satire of God and religion. Perhaps you would also be so kind as to present some of these arguments here so that we may judge them on their merits, such as they are. I'm sure that your arguments will be very formidable, and I will have to capitulate to you forth with.

"Your 'story' has so many misrepresentations and false assumptions and conclusions that I wouldn't know where to begin in correcting them."

I have complete faith in your abilities to correct my mistakes, and eagerly look forward to your exposing my many misrepresentations, false assumptions and conclusions.

"You present Christians as having no real or valid evidence for the existence of God, for example."

I really, really look forward to your evidence that proves the existence of Bob, uh God here in the EoG forum Doug. Think of the headlines, "Doug Bender blows Secular Web out of the water with his proof that Bob, uh God exists." Film at eleven. You'll be a star!

"And you present the God that they believe in as being an obviously inconsistent and cruel Being."

That�s because the bible tells me so, Doug.

"And you present the evils done in the name of Christianity as being the responsibility of true Christians, or at least as things validly derivable from the Bible. All misrepresentations, at best."

Oh, I get it, all the evil done by Christians, Muslims and Jews was done by those fake Christians, Muslims and Jews, not the real ones. Silly me, I got them confused with each other. Well, you know, they all look alike to me.

In Christ, Douglas

In Bob, David.

David M. Payne · 11-03-2002, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by zwi:
David Payne

Would you explain why the Who were moneylenders before the birth of Chris?

Apart from your overt anti-Semitism I liked your essay

Zwi

Hi zwi, glad you liked the story. I'm a little rusty on this, but if memory serves me correctly, (And with my CRS that's debatable.) it was because it was a profession that was looked down upon, and it was one of the only ones that the Romans allowed the Jews to have. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this. In any event, that's not really that important to the story, I could have made them camel herders, it was a satire after all, so the rules are rather flexible. I am not anti-Semitic or anti any people, I'm anti religion, as <a href="http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=236" target="_blank">"The Story of Bob"</a> makes pretty clear, and Judaism is a religion that has it's own history of horror, past and present, just like the rest of them.

David

David M. Payne · 11-03-2002, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abacus:
Infidels! Bob is a false god!

There is no God but Frank, and Joe is his prophet.

You know, Frank was my first choice Abacus, but I couldn't get the ending to work out right.

David

zwi · 11-05-2002, 05:14 PM

David Payne

Jews have performed all trades and professions. Many were amazed that Jews could farm so well in Israel

Usury was regarded by the Christian Church as inherently sinful and thus reserved for the Jews. They were then allowed to reap the pofits, but if the Christians wanted money, for example for their Crusades, they just took it from the Jews. As proof I offer the text of The Merchant of Venice, by William Shakespeare

That is why the charge of money lending is a resented antiSemitic canard It did not predate the birth of Cris

Most antisemitism is founded in the Book of Mark. Much was spread by some early Jewish sects in rivalry with other Jewish sects which were really Christian sects,

I wuill agree that Orthodox Judaism is a monotheistic religion, and not a very tolerant or attractive one

Zwi

This is from a post of mine under another name on another Board

Quote:

In the Germany/Italy of the thirties and forties if you had one grandparent who was Jewish you were ipso facto Jewish. It didnt do you any good to explain that Bismarck had given your great grandfather the title of *von*, as happened to the ancestor of someone I met. They still were deported from Denmark to die in Auschwitz

After the Olympic massacre in Munich in 1972 many Jews, including myself, lost trust that the European community would ever aid us The surviving Black September gunmen were very quickly exchanged for the release of prisoners; and left Germany for safety. The Israelis realised the situation. They hunted down and took care of the gunmen ruthlessly Yes innocent lives were lost by mistake

And yes,those techniques have been learned by the CIA, witness the death in the desert of six AlQaida this week

zwi · 11-05-2002, 05:17 PM

David Payne

All things considered, make them camel herders in the next edition

That will not detract from the story or pucsh the wrong button

Best

Zwi

hal9000 · 11-05-2002, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by zwi:
David Payne

All things considered, make them camel herders in the next edition

That will not detract from the story or pucsh the wrong button

Best

Zwi

Zwi, wasn�t there a tale in the bible about Jesus angering the Jewish moneylenders by tipping over their tables?

Douglas J. Bender · 11-05-2002, 06:09 PM

Biff,

Quote:

Gee Douglas, in Acts 5:1 to 5:10 we find Saint Peter murdering a married couple, Ananias and three hours later his wife Sapphira. Seems that they sold some property they owned and gave the money from it to the Christian church. But they kept some of what they got from the sale to cover their own needs. The NT doesn't say how Peter did them in, it implies death by magic.

Are you reading the same Bible I am? The New Testament does not say how they died, but it clearly implies that God killed them directly, apparently by "removing His Spirit" from them. No "murder" involved, just righteous judgment meted out justly and immediately as an example of the reality of God and the seriousness of sin.

Quote:

Same crime all those witches were burned alive for.

Witches were burned alive in the New Testament? Where?

Quote:

Of course Peter is the "live by the sword" guy so he might have stabbed them when they didn't fork over all their dough.

Oh, stop with the wild speculation, and stick with the text, please.

Quote:

So is Saint Peter, the gate keeper of heaven, a true Christian or not.

A true Christian.

Quote:

Your standards seem to say he isn't.

If he had actually murdered someone, and had not genuinely repented, that would be different. But he did not murder anyone. So, in what way do you think he failed to meet my "standards" for being a true Christian?

Quote:

Are you more saintly than he?

I rather doubt it.

In Christ,

Douglas

Douglas J. Bender · 11-05-2002, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Me: Your [David's] story reveals that you know very little about God, the Bible, and Christianity. It seems as though you have culled all your information about these subjects from reading the mockery here at Internet Infidels, which is not a particularly objective or accurate source of information about such topics. It would appear that you need to read some of the arguments presented by the 'other' side, namely Christians.

David: Well Doug,...

(I prefer to be called "Douglas". Thanks.)

Quote:

...perhaps you can enlighten us all with specifics as to where I went wrong in my satire of God and religion.

I've been pondering the best way to do so. Whether to use satire, or just come right out and black-and-white point out the errors.

Quote:

David: Perhaps you would also be so kind as to present some of these arguments here so that we may judge them on their merits, such as they are.

I have, many times, in many threads, over many months, explained the truths about Jesus and Christianity. I expect I'll have to do so here again, but that's okay.

Quote:

David: I'm sure that your arguments will be very formidable, and I will have to capitulate to you forth with.

Confidence - I like that in a debating opponent.

Quote:

Me: Your 'story' has so many misrepresentations and false assumptions and conclusions that I wouldn't know where to begin in correcting them.

David: I have complete faith in your abilities to correct my mistakes, and eagerly look forward to your exposing my many misrepresentations, false assumptions and conclusions.

Not only are you a supremely confident man, but you're apparently a masochist as well. A rare combination.

Quote:

Me: You present Christians as having no real or valid evidence for the existence of God, for example.

David: I really, really look forward to your evidence that proves the existence of Bob, uh God here in the EoG forum Doug.

(That's "Douglas", if you don't mind. Thanks again.) Seriously, though, David - are you honestly open to the possibility of God's existence, or are you absolutely certain that He does not exist? Are you willing to consider possible evidence, or would you attempt to scoff it away under any circumstances?

Quote:

David: Think of the headlines, "Doug Bender blows Secular Web out of the water with his proof that Bob, uh God exists." Film at eleven. You'll be a star!

Well, in all and absolute honesty, if there was any justice, I should have received that acknowledgment a long time ago.

Quote:

Me: And you present the God that they believe in as being an obviously inconsistent and cruel Being.

David: That’s because the bible tells me so, Doug.

Apparently only because you are very hard of hearing, or because you've not been paying attention when it speaks, since the Bible never says that.

Quote:

Me: And you present the evils done in the name of Christianity as being the responsibility of true Christians, or at least as things validly derivable from the Bible. All misrepresentations, at best.

David: Oh, I get it, all the evil done by Christians, Muslims and Jews was done by those fake Christians, Muslims and Jews, not the real ones.

Correct, at least in the case of Christians and Jews.

Quote:

David: Silly me, I got them confused with each other.

I wouldn't go trumpeting that fact if you are trying to convince others that you know what you're talking about when you discuss Christianity, David.

Quote:

David: Well, you know, they all look alike to me.

Well, you know, you've just proven that you're not qualified to judge Christianity, then. Anyone who cannot discern the difference between what a book teaches, and what those who claim to follow it do, is not discerning enough to expound on that book. Wouldn't you agree?

Quote:

Me: In Christ, Douglas

David: In Bob, David.

How clever.

In Christ,

Douglas

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Douglas J. Bender ]

zwi · 11-05-2002, 06:31 PM

I have little NT knowledge but I was taught they were money changers

Cambio or Bureau de change sort of thing.

That may be the origin of the reservation of money handling to Jews

Certainly the Romans despised the Palestinian religions but did not restrict Jews occupations. They coud even be Roman citizens

Zwi

hal9000 · 11-05-2002, 06:44 PM

Douglas J. Bender, I posted this in another thread on this subject but its good to go here too. Voltaire did a story called �Candide� which was a satire on the church. It caused quite a stir in its day and is one of his most famous works. I think DP�s �The Story of Bob� is very much in that vein, and as such I can see how it could annoy people like you. Sometimes satire is the best way to puncture the puffed up arrogance of the Holy Roller types and their beliefs in myths. Is this what happened to you, did he let the air out of your god and religion balloon?

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11-03-2002, 10:40 PM	#11
David M. Payne Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The land of chain smoking, bible thumping, holy ro Posts: 1,248	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Douglas J. Bender: David, "Your story reveals that you know very little about God, the Bible, and Christianity. It seems as though you have culled all your information about these subjects from reading the mockery here at Internet Infidels, which is not a particularly objective or accurate source of information about such topics. It would appear that you need to read some of the arguments presented by the 'other' side, namely Christians." Well Doug, perhaps you can enlighten us all with specifics as to where I went wrong in my satire of God and religion. Perhaps you would also be so kind as to present some of these arguments here so that we may judge them on their merits, such as they are. I'm sure that your arguments will be very formidable, and I will have to capitulate to you forth with. "Your 'story' has so many misrepresentations and false assumptions and conclusions that I wouldn't know where to begin in correcting them." I have complete faith in your abilities to correct my mistakes, and eagerly look forward to your exposing my many misrepresentations, false assumptions and conclusions. "You present Christians as having no real or valid evidence for the existence of God, for example." I really, really look forward to your evidence that proves the existence of Bob, uh God here in the EoG forum Doug. Think of the headlines, "Doug Bender blows Secular Web out of the water with his proof that Bob, uh God exists." Film at eleven. You'll be a star! "And you present the God that they believe in as being an obviously inconsistent and cruel Being." That�s because the bible tells me so, Doug. "And you present the evils done in the name of Christianity as being the responsibility of true Christians, or at least as things validly derivable from the Bible. All misrepresentations, at best." Oh, I get it, all the evil done by Christians, Muslims and Jews was done by those fake Christians, Muslims and Jews, not the real ones. Silly me, I got them confused with each other. Well, you know, they all look alike to me. In Christ, Douglas In Bob, David.

11-05-2002, 05:17 PM	#15
zwi Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sarasota FL Posts: 60	David Payne All things considered, make them camel herders in the next edition That will not detract from the story or pucsh the wrong button Best Zwi

11-05-2002, 06:31 PM	#19
zwi Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sarasota FL Posts: 60	I have little NT knowledge but I was taught they were money changers Cambio or Bureau de change sort of thing. That may be the origin of the reservation of money handling to Jews Certainly the Romans despised the Palestinian religions but did not restrict Jews occupations. They coud even be Roman citizens Zwi

11-05-2002, 06:44 PM	#20
hal9000 Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: just over your shoulder Posts: 146	Douglas J. Bender, I posted this in another thread on this subject but its good to go here too. Voltaire did a story called �Candide� which was a satire on the church. It caused quite a stir in its day and is one of his most famous works. I think DP�s �The Story of Bob� is very much in that vein, and as such I can see how it could annoy people like you. Sometimes satire is the best way to puncture the puffed up arrogance of the Holy Roller types and their beliefs in myths. Is this what happened to you, did he let the air out of your god and religion balloon?

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