Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Wyrdsmyth · 08-05-2002, 05:25 PM

One question I've always had about the existence of God -- specifically the Judeo-Christian conception -- is why so many believers accept that it makes sense for God only to manifest himself to the consciousness of a single believer at a time, a la the "religious experience," but not for him to manifest to large groups, in a physical aspect, where he can be recorded, videotaped, etc. for everyone to examine such evidence to their contentment?

Does this cause any cognitive dissonence in you believers out there? Do you feel like you have to "apologize" for God's penchant for mystery, elusiveness, and conspicuously diverse contacts?

The reason I ask is because this always caused a cognitive dissonence with me, when I was an erstwhile 'believer' (ahem... when my parents made me go to church). I always thought it quite odd that a building full of people would pray and sing hymns to an invisible entity and never get -- or even expect -- an overt response, a public verification that the thing they were praying to was there, and really existed.

"The ancients got parted seas and rejuvenated corpses -- all we ever get is a really old book and a lot of bad hymnal music." -- Gary Welsh

[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: Wyrdsmyth ]

WJ · 08-07-2002, 06:06 AM

Hi Wyrd!

I trust things are going well up at the Burg, this summer.

Personally, I see no reason for appologies because there exists many many mysteries to our own (conscious)existence. There is no paradox there. It is quite logically consistent. In that regard (existence & consciousness viz. the existence of a God), do you see any?

You're right, the religious or spiritual experience is the more important thing.

Walrus

[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: WJ ]

tommyc · 08-07-2002, 08:02 AM

Quote:

"The ancients got parted seas and rejuvenated corpses -- all we ever get is a really old book and a lot of bad hymnal music." -- Gary Welsh

haha, great quote, but I actually really like religious music.

WJ · 08-07-2002, 11:10 AM

Wasn't he the guy who sang 'ebony eyes'?

Wyrdsmyth · 08-08-2002, 08:06 AM

Hi Walrus,

Quote:

Originally posted by WJ:
I trust things are going well up at the Burg, this summer.

Yes, the heat spell just broke two days ago and the Steelers are about to start their season... those are good things!

Quote:

Personally, I see no reason for appologies because there exists many many mysteries to our own (conscious)existence. There is no paradox there. It is quite logically consistent. In that regard (existence & consciousness viz. the existence of a God), do you see any?

Perhaps not a paradox, per se. But more like the sort of thing that will get you to raise your eyebrow. Do you know what I mean? What I am talking about is that cognitive dissonence... that feeling like, "Hey, maybe something doesn't quite make sense here."

WJ · 08-08-2002, 09:26 AM

Hi Wyrd!

Yes, I'm looking forward to tonight's game. Apparently Jet's are back from Japan and either might be lossened-up ready to kick but or too tired from jet lag...we shall see. Go black and gold!

Anyway, maybe you could provide an example of what you mean by that dissonance because I think when you relate it to experience, you almost have to express it in the form of happenstance. One example I can thing of off the top might be the tension between the will (in the mind)to do something yet the seemingly the inability to actually do it, all the time. this probably has more to do with ethics and the intrinsic nature of simply being a human but, is that where you are going with the 'experience' argument/discussion?

Walrus

Wyrdsmyth · 08-14-2002, 05:05 PM

Hi Walrus,

I gave an example in my OP. The dissonence is caused by, on one hand that God is a personal entity, who can be physically interacted with (and has); and on the other hand, the fact that all any of us ever actually gets is the claim that other people have done this interacting.

I used the example of the epiphany I once had while in church. There we all were, heads bowed in prayer -- and it just kind of hit me. I thought it was odd that we all prayed to this invisible entity and never got -- or even expected -- a response. How odd! All these Sundays, and not a single divine peep. Yet we were all quite sure that other people's gods, such as those of the ancient Greeks and Norsemen, were just societal constructs and made up "false" gods -- they were just made by the imaginations of men. Couldn't that also be true of our own god?

That was my first inner formulation of my own cognitive dissonence. Of course, some people may point out that my reasoning contains the "genetic fallacy," and they're right. Yet, I would reply that I am not here advancing a deductive argument, but merely pointing out a cognitive dissonence, a "wrench in the gears," as it were, something that just got me to thinking... and now I'm asking if others have had a similar sequence of thoughts.

08-05-2002, 05:25 PM	#1
Wyrdsmyth Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Sarver, PA, USA Posts: 920	God the person, or the experience? One question I've always had about the existence of God -- specifically the Judeo-Christian conception -- is why so many believers accept that it makes sense for God only to manifest himself to the consciousness of a single believer at a time, a la the "religious experience," but not for him to manifest to large groups, in a physical aspect, where he can be recorded, videotaped, etc. for everyone to examine such evidence to their contentment? Does this cause any cognitive dissonence in you believers out there? Do you feel like you have to "apologize" for God's penchant for mystery, elusiveness, and conspicuously diverse contacts? The reason I ask is because this always caused a cognitive dissonence with me, when I was an erstwhile 'believer' (ahem... when my parents made me go to church). I always thought it quite odd that a building full of people would pray and sing hymns to an invisible entity and never get -- or even expect -- an overt response, a public verification that the thing they were praying to was there, and really existed. "The ancients got parted seas and rejuvenated corpses -- all we ever get is a really old book and a lot of bad hymnal music." -- Gary Welsh [ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: Wyrdsmyth ]</p>

08-07-2002, 06:06 AM	#2
WJ Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 812	Hi Wyrd! I trust things are going well up at the Burg, this summer. Personally, I see no reason for appologies because there exists many many mysteries to our own (conscious)existence. There is no paradox there. It is quite logically consistent. In that regard (existence & consciousness viz. the existence of a God), do you see any? You're right, the religious or spiritual experience is the more important thing. Walrus [ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: WJ ]</p>

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08-07-2002, 11:10 AM	#4
WJ Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 812	Wasn't he the guy who sang 'ebony eyes'?

08-08-2002, 09:26 AM	#6
WJ Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 812	Hi Wyrd! Yes, I'm looking forward to tonight's game. Apparently Jet's are back from Japan and either might be lossened-up ready to kick but or too tired from jet lag...we shall see. Go black and gold! Anyway, maybe you could provide an example of what you mean by that dissonance because I think when you relate it to experience, you almost have to express it in the form of happenstance. One example I can thing of off the top might be the tension between the will (in the mind)to do something yet the seemingly the inability to actually do it, all the time. this probably has more to do with ethics and the intrinsic nature of simply being a human but, is that where you are going with the 'experience' argument/discussion? Walrus

08-14-2002, 05:05 PM	#7
Wyrdsmyth Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Sarver, PA, USA Posts: 920	Hi Walrus, I gave an example in my OP. The dissonence is caused by, on one hand that God is a personal entity, who can be physically interacted with (and has); and on the other hand, the fact that all any of us ever actually gets is the claim that other people have done this interacting. I used the example of the epiphany I once had while in church. There we all were, heads bowed in prayer -- and it just kind of hit me. I thought it was odd that we all prayed to this invisible entity and never got -- or even expected -- a response. How odd! All these Sundays, and not a single divine peep. Yet we were all quite sure that other people's gods, such as those of the ancient Greeks and Norsemen, were just societal constructs and made up "false" gods -- they were just made by the imaginations of men. Couldn't that also be true of our own god? That was my first inner formulation of my own cognitive dissonence. Of course, some people may point out that my reasoning contains the "genetic fallacy," and they're right. Yet, I would reply that I am not here advancing a deductive argument, but merely pointing out a cognitive dissonence, a "wrench in the gears," as it were, something that just got me to thinking... and now I'm asking if others have had a similar sequence of thoughts.

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