D.H. Cross

Hope in contrast, yes. Hope for men of reason when compared to the fires of hell, yes. I agree that the nontheist worldview makes more sense, and in that can feel liberating. Even more so when young! I much prefer Butrand Russel's ethics, or even the Wiccan rede over Christian dogma, for instance.

And so I believe that Atheism offers more hope of a rational lifestyle, allowing for better decisions, and perhaps even more meaningful realtionships (after all it takes special people to accept who I am). It does not, however, offer any hope in regard the afterlife, nor is it consoling when somebody dies. That just plain sucks.

It is in that department that religion has us beat...it is selling a much stronger product on the consolation market.

[ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: D.H. Cross ]</p>

David Gould

I agree that it is a stronger product if viewed in a certain way.

However, I came to atheism via a road that started with Christianity as hope, led to it being a despair and finally to it being false.

Emotional thinking led me to rational thinking.

If one word can slightly distort the lense through which Christianity is viewed, it may lead a person to rationality.

And I have no moral qualms about shaking most people's faith because I know that there is hope beyond faith. I use my judgemnet on this, however.

Doubting Didymus

I disagree. I think that that is is unjustified assumption that theists make. You really ought to take claims like this with a grain of salt when you hear them, as most people who claim this are theists, and have never been on the other side of the fence. Talk to someone who was once FIRMLY theistic, and is now FIRMLY atheistic, and I think you'll find that the consolation just doesn't exist.

The question to answer is this: if the afterlife is so comforting, why get so upset in the first place? if you will see the person again in 20 odd years or so, wouldn't a funeral be about as sad as seeing a relative off on a long voyage? You'd cry a little, wave your hanky at the departing boat, and wait. The fact that a death is equally distressing for theists and atheists is to me a strong indicator that the 'comfort' factor is the same on both sides. You get over it eventually, and thats all.

David Gould

True. At the funeral, the extremely Christian grandmother of my friend collapsed through grief. Is this because she thinks her granddaughter is in hell? I do not think so, because all the talk from her was 'She is in a better place,'. And the grandmother will surely not have to wait that long to see her grandchild in any case...

Why such grief unless deep down we know that we will never see them again?

[ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: David Gould ]</p>

Doubting Didymus

I'm not sure that is because of deep down 'knowledge', but either way the emotions are the same.

I think this is a brand new way to see the 'what does X offer?' arguments put forth by both sides. If the 'hope' offered by theism doesn't comfort like theists claim, then what is the value of theism?

David Gould

I guess what I meant by the deep down bit is that perhaps many Christians recognise at some level that their beliefs are simply wishes and hopes.

If they truly believed them then surely they would behave differently than atheists at funerals. The Christian grieving process would seem to be very similar to the atheists, while perhaps using different props and window dressing to get through the process.

I agree: if theism does not offer the comfort it claims to offer, then whence theism?

philechat

Social and community supports, and other "this-worldly" benefits. Not to say acceptance by mainstream American society.

And many people still think theism is true because their parents and friends believe it to be true. And a structured way of life in accordance to tradition (what their parents do).

And the idea that there is a parent figure watching over them...idealize their instinct to punish by calling it "God's justice". Is it surprising that many people thought God stand by their moral values or nationality or religious rituals?

David Gould

But social and community supports exist for the atheist also, so that is not an exclusive benefit of theism.

While acceptance by mainstream America can be considered a benefit, that is merely a funtion of numbers and not actually a benefit of the belief system in and of itself.

The structured way of life is not unique to theism - it is a fact that most people have similar relative economic circumstances to their parents and it is economic factors that tend to determine structure (in other words, if you have to get a job then you will do so, if your parents went to uni then you will likely do so and so forth).

I guess what I am wondering now is what unique benefits (if any) theism confers on its adherents?

I suspect that there are no unique benefits.

Doubting Didymus

And it isn't true. So there is your reason for convincing people of the truth of atheism. Its called education: replacing an untruth with a truth.

Troma

Ouch philechat. That's something I also learned the hard way, never debate family, or boy/girlfriend. Being an atheist I can joke about faith and things of that nature, but I find that people who believe that stuff can be very sensitive about it.

My stepfather started to argue with me a few months ago about religion for some strange reason. And although I was having a blast, I quickly found out he was dead serious. Needless to say by the time I figured out how serious he was, the damage had already been done.

I called it as I saw it, and well, his brand fundamentalist christianity is totally nuts, and I basically told him that.