D.H. Cross

I give up. People are either open to reason or they are not, but in the end the news that there is no god or afterlife is not of any comfort. It is no wonder that scientism (which usually goes along with the lack of belief in gods) is unpopular. I predict that nonbelievers will remain in the minority forever, and I think Michael Shermer would agree with me on that point.

The whole debate is not about reason or logic! People do not want to rely on themselves for meaning and purpose in their lives. It is harder that way, especially as death comes nearer to the door.

Cynical atheists have all of the consoling power of a grinning skull. Sometimes I'd rather not even discuss my views with my friends (or my pagan wife) because all it ever does it upset them. Sure, I can say that indiviudal purpose is a better question than that of Ultimate Meaning, but try telling them that when their whole family dies in a car crash. Try telling a man there is no God nor any afterlife when his wife is slowly dying of cancer.

Go ahead and see what good it does in the world, really.

My father, an athiest like myself, wrote a wonderful poem:

IGNOTUS

Why must I muse my base for breath
I sear my soul yet find but death
Best be the man whose heart is blind
Dim be his lamp but joy doth find
Half-light in love, a woman's kiss
White dove above, eternal bliss
What must I know before I die
Just walk life's lane and weigh not why

I have spent a good deal of my life attempting to demonstrate that the message of that poem is wrong, but now I don't think so. Better that once you know the truth, keep it to yourself.
Otherwise you preach only death. <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

[ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: D.H. Cross ]</p>

Doubting Didymus

Perhaps you should have kept that to yourself?

Doubting Didymus

Seriously though, I find that Atheism itself should not be judged on its own merits. The true beauty of atheism is that is frees you from other peoples beliefs, allowing you to find beauty and meaning wherever you want to.

Those of us who have been both theists and atheists know the truth: that there is no true comfort in theism. I am as happy and fulfilled as an atheist as I ever was believing that my loved ones were still around in heaven.

Theists that insist that there is comfort and hope in theism, and none in atheism are making an unfounded assumption.

D.H. Cross

You found no comfort in the though that your loved ones would live on? Why not?

I'm just frustrated. I see that when I "win" an argument with a believer, they get depressed. I don't like upsetting people. I feel that the freedom you speak of feels good only when it is found through somebody's own initative and passion for reason and truth. I am beginning to believe that it is a small number of people who have the personality (or genetic predisposition?) to acknowlede and integrate atheism in their lives.

David Gould

I went to a funeral the other day. The person was not a Christian, but her parents were and held the service in their Church.

All through the service were all these mentions of the hope of an afterlife et cetera.

Yet there was no mention of the fact that according to standard Christian doctrine this girl is now in Hell.

I am thankful that this girl is not suffering in hell for eternity.

In fact, any religion that preaches such a thing is a religion of absolute despair and not a religion of hope.

Thus, I am very glad that there is no Christian heaven. I celebrate that thought in my mind whenever I think of my friend. The hope of Christian heaven is a false and selfish one when the hatefilled doctrine of Hell is not ignored or glossed over.

philechat

Yup. Various "defense mechanism" were seen when I debated theists on the existence of God.

Some examples include:

A break-up: a Christian ex-bf broke up with me the next day I debated with him (and I thought the debate was fun!)

Blind assertion:
Theist: "You just need to have faith!"
Me: "define "faith" for me."
Theist: "You don't understand what FAITH means? How can you not understand what FAITH means?"
Me: <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Identity politics: "It is part of my identity! It's really important to me! How can you do that?"

Ecetera. Ecetera.
<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

I have no idea. Perhaps it's the supreme example of "membership mentality" (PC term for herd mentality). I also began to feel that atheism is reserved for only a few resolute, independent souls who are unswayed by popular opinions. The accepted discrimination against atheists in the US is not a great help either.

D.H. Cross

*Well, yeah, except for the believers. Most Christians refuse to believe that a family member really didn't believe (DENIAL!). Strangers can go to hell though. Heh. When a priest told me my father was going to hell, I asked, "Well, I wouldn't send my father to hell. How is it that I would be more compassionate than god?" The answer was that I was unjust. Yeah right.

Yes, being wormfood rather than consigned to hellfire is a better of two fairly crappy situations. Most christians I know reject the idea of hell, interpret it as final death without heaven (and I suppose I believe in hell in that sense). New Agers and neopagans have a much more fluffy vision of the afterlife...I REALLY hate to burst their bubbles.

[ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: D.H. Cross ]

[ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: D.H. Cross ]</p>

Doubting Didymus

I was as surprised as you are. As a theist, I was certain that I could not have possibly coped without my beliefs. However after becoming an atheist, I found that my feeling were in fact exactly the same. I think that, no matter what you believe, the pain of losing a loved one does not change. Those emotions are an intrinsic part of the human psyche, and they are not allayed by theism, nor are they compounded by atheism.

As for depression upon conversion, that happened to me as well, but I could not belive in something I KNEW to be false, even though I may have wanted to. (some people, however, seem to posess this capacity, which is beyond my understanding).

David makes a compelling case for non-christianity. He highlights the compelling fact that the comfort of theism (which I have personally found to be no different to atheism) is often counterbalanced by deeply disturbing uncomforts, (which many theists conveniently ignore).

My point is, though atheism may seem depressing and hopeless to those outside of it, in reality it is emotionally similar, if not slightly better and on top if that it happens to be true as well.

David Gould

I understand that religions inspire hope in their followers.

However, I am responding to the idea that there is a lack of hope in the atheist viewpoint.

From my perspective as an atheist, the fact that religion is false gives me a lot of hope.

One of the main reasons for this is that the fear of hell for myself or for others no longer exists.

As such, my life is more fulfilling and my time on Earth is happier.

Thus, saying that atheism provides no hope is wrong.

D.H. Cross

*Of course it is common for one to feel grief over a lost loved one. I agree that this is nearly intrinsic, as you say, quite natural. I suggest that the pain is real and equal for both a theist and an atheist, but that each deals with that loss in a very different way. An atheist who has the capacity for being very philosopical can reason his way out of depression over the event. A theist will likely find comfort in his church community, or lacking that, his familys beliefs that the loved one is "still around". My wifes family constantly "sees" their loved ones. In fact my wife insists that her grandfather plays tricks on us when things are missing, and that her dead uncle is a family ghost. It makes her feel better. I have never played along, but would say, "I see nothing". Her answer: I lack the type of intuitive vision required. And so on it goes, round and round. Christians do the same, and as Dean Radin said, "beliving is seeing". It is VERY difficult to unhinge beliefs which act as defense mechanisms against the painful realities of the world. For a rational, well-balanced fellow like yourself, the transition into a more naturalistic worldview may be less bumpy, but for the average person (at least in my experince) the transition is highly emotional. I'll never forget my mother crying and beating the floor, screaming, "there is no god!" That realization was charged with great import and emotion! To this day, for her, it has not be a feeling of wonderful intellectual liberation. That, despite my father having been an atheist by blood it seems.

My point: I think it depends on temperment. Furthermore, I believe that most people ARE NOT RATIONAL to begin with. Rationality is something us humans must strive for, it is an ideal like Truth, but for most it is not the baseline. That is what the freethinkers are fighting against...not just superstition, but emotional reasoning. Nothing is more self-validating. How can one argue with the person who has "felt the holy spirit"? First you must make him unsure of himself, convince him not to trust his first impressions and intutions. Most will hate you for it. I could be wrong but sometimes the best thing to do is hand them a George H. Smith book and hope they read it. If they don't, they didn't want to know. And that is the crux: Most do not want to know, even if their worldview is wrong. Why else would Pascal's wager be such a strong argument to many? Fideism is alive and well.

I agree with that if we are talking about day to day reality. I suddenly find myself thinking of the movie, "Shadowlands", about C.S. Lewis. I remember the scene when he yelled at his friends for their meaningless consolations, calling the earth a giant lab for god's sport. His wife had died at a young age of cancer, and he felt it all very unfair and it nearly broke his faith. I have no doubt it was his faith that got him through. Faith may be the quick and easy way to get one through hard times. Other ways take more work...like cognitive therapy. Most people just won't want to rearrange their minds and their entire view of the universe to account for the meaning of deaths in their lives.

It makes me think also of common debates about creation versus evolution. The debate will continue forever as long as people do not understand evolution. But most people do not have the inclination to really study the theories of evolution, any more than they wish to tackle the hard philosopical questions implicit in atheism.

And so, I remain thinking that freethinkers will remain the minority because it takes much more work than faith. People are too scared and/or lazy to do the work. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

People like you are the admirable exceptions.

[ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: D.H. Cross ]</p>