Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Koyaanisqatsi · 06-17-2002, 11:48 AM

No, leonarde, I just exposed the obvious fraud you were perpetuating.

Stephen T-B · 06-19-2002, 08:37 AM

The truly astonsihing thing about the Shroud is that anyone should think it might have wrapped a human body.
The reasons given by Baidarka, viz: "If it was real it would have wrapped around the body and head and it would not give us a simple front view of a face but it would display all sides of the body creating what I would call the Alfred E Newman effect..." etc. are enough, but I would add that this effect would be distorted by wrinkles and folds in the material so that the 'image' would be extremely difficult to determine.
I guess, in fact, that it would be a meaningless splodge.
The web sites of its devotees are deeply depressing; as indeed are those of the Fundamentalists which exhibit an equally astonishing ability to believe in such transparent myths as the Flood, Noah's Ark and the Genesis version of Creation.
What do these people do? Disconnect their brains?

B. H. Manners · 06-19-2002, 08:10 PM

Is it possible that the shroud, or parts of it, were created by some sort of Middle Ages primitive photographic device? I read a book on that a while back and thought that was an interesting idea.

B. H. Manners · 06-19-2002, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by alphatronics:
<strong>

</strong>

Don't you make fun of that. Keep in mind Jehovah himself jacked off on that cloth!

Berenger Sauniere · 06-19-2002, 08:44 PM

Jesus is shrouded in mystery and nothing else, unless you know the mystery, in which the shroud is no more. It certainly ain't no sack-cloth either. One more thing, Christians will rue the day when they discover what it is. Let me put it this way, there will be plenty of garment renting and gnashing of teeth to go around.

Oresta · 06-20-2002, 05:09 AM

The Vatican pronounced the shroud to be a 14th century pious fraud decades ago. Why anyone would want to think it evidence of anything other than that, I cannot fathom.

Tourism is vry big business in Turin.

Mediancat · 06-20-2002, 07:40 AM

For an opinion that doesn't approach it from the religious or scientific angles, may I recommend a quick perusal of Thomas Hoving's book False Impressions, all about art forgeries? He has several pages on the Shroud -- and is convinced from the standpoint of a fakebuster of the Shroud's being a forgery. (He includes some on the early hnistory of the Shroud . . . and how a number of bishops and priests back then were also convinced it was a fraud.)

Rob aka Mediancat

Oresta · 06-21-2002, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Is it possible that the shroud, or parts of it, were created by some sort of Middle Ages primitive photographic device? I read a book on that a while back and thought that was an interesting idea.

Not likely. The image is not a true negative. If it were "developed", Jesus' hair would be white. One logical explanation for how it was created is that a wet "shroud" was molded over a sculpture. Paint was then applied; a process not unlike brass rubbings, and one fairly well-known in the Middle Ages.

[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: Oresta ]</p>

Stephen T-B · 06-21-2002, 05:14 AM

Quote: "One logical explanation for how it was created is that a wet "shroud" was molded over a sculpture. Paint was then applied..."
No no. Baidarka's objection would still apply; a portrait-type two-dimensional representation would not be the result of such a procedure.

sullster · 06-21-2002, 02:59 PM

When you think about this shroud and the continuing talk of it, can you even imagine what it might have been like during the Midevil Ages when the catholic church was in total control of European culture?

The masses must have been so bedazzled by crowns of thorns, pieces of the cross, sandals of jesus, etc..etc.. The clergy must have cynically manipulated the credulous masses to their personal gain to an extent that we cannot even concieve of.

When I see all the stuff that still exists in and around Catholic churhes, it make me consider it like a hangover from the midevil ages. A giant insane religious orgy where some of the remains still lie about. This shroud of Turin, is for me, a relic of a period of religious insanity.

We must continue to distance ourselves from the madnesses of religion. Objects like this shroud must be continually debunked and scoffed at.

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06-17-2002, 11:48 AM	#11
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	No, leonarde, I just exposed the obvious fraud you were perpetuating.

06-19-2002, 08:37 AM	#12
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	The truly astonsihing thing about the Shroud is that anyone should think it might have wrapped a human body. The reasons given by Baidarka, viz: "If it was real it would have wrapped around the body and head and it would not give us a simple front view of a face but it would display all sides of the body creating what I would call the Alfred E Newman effect..." etc. are enough, but I would add that this effect would be distorted by wrinkles and folds in the material so that the 'image' would be extremely difficult to determine. I guess, in fact, that it would be a meaningless splodge. The web sites of its devotees are deeply depressing; as indeed are those of the Fundamentalists which exhibit an equally astonishing ability to believe in such transparent myths as the Flood, Noah's Ark and the Genesis version of Creation. What do these people do? Disconnect their brains?

06-19-2002, 08:10 PM	#13
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	Is it possible that the shroud, or parts of it, were created by some sort of Middle Ages primitive photographic device? I read a book on that a while back and thought that was an interesting idea.

06-19-2002, 08:44 PM	#15
Berenger Sauniere Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: et in Arcadia ego... Posts: 406	Jesus is shrouded in mystery and nothing else, unless you know the mystery, in which the shroud is no more. It certainly ain't no sack-cloth either. One more thing, Christians will rue the day when they discover what it is. Let me put it this way, there will be plenty of garment renting and gnashing of teeth to go around.

06-20-2002, 05:09 AM	#16
Oresta Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 1,107	The Vatican pronounced the shroud to be a 14th century pious fraud decades ago. Why anyone would want to think it evidence of anything other than that, I cannot fathom. Tourism is vry big business in Turin.

06-20-2002, 07:40 AM	#17
Mediancat Contributor Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Baltimore County, MD Posts: 19,644	For an opinion that doesn't approach it from the religious or scientific angles, may I recommend a quick perusal of Thomas Hoving's book False Impressions, all about art forgeries? He has several pages on the Shroud -- and is convinced from the standpoint of a fakebuster of the Shroud's being a forgery. (He includes some on the early hnistory of the Shroud . . . and how a number of bishops and priests back then were also convinced it was a fraud.) Rob aka Mediancat

06-21-2002, 05:14 AM	#19
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	Quote: "One logical explanation for how it was created is that a wet "shroud" was molded over a sculpture. Paint was then applied..." No no. Baidarka's objection would still apply; a portrait-type two-dimensional representation would not be the result of such a procedure.

06-21-2002, 02:59 PM	#20
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	When you think about this shroud and the continuing talk of it, can you even imagine what it might have been like during the Midevil Ages when the catholic church was in total control of European culture? The masses must have been so bedazzled by crowns of thorns, pieces of the cross, sandals of jesus, etc..etc.. The clergy must have cynically manipulated the credulous masses to their personal gain to an extent that we cannot even concieve of. When I see all the stuff that still exists in and around Catholic churhes, it make me consider it like a hangover from the midevil ages. A giant insane religious orgy where some of the remains still lie about. This shroud of Turin, is for me, a relic of a period of religious insanity. We must continue to distance ourselves from the madnesses of religion. Objects like this shroud must be continually debunked and scoffed at.

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