Freethought & Rationalism Archive

emotional · 07-11-2003, 04:02 PM

Just attack them on their own home range by saying the originator of Christianity is Satan. It makes sense to me.

Majody · 07-11-2003, 05:03 PM

I'll tell you, that alone is one of the biggest problems I have with Xianity. As bad as that may seem, it is infinetly worse than that. But that's assuming it actually exists

No "all-loving" god would do that. And I'm with Taffer, not even Hitler deserves that.

Nic Hautamaki · 07-12-2003, 02:40 AM

well, unfortunately, I think that the christians ally succeeded in formulating a rationally coherant model of how free will can exist apart from God, such that God is not responsible for our choices. Namely, that God made himself not-omnipotent for the time it took to create us, in order for actual free will to exist. The christian conceded that it's rationally impossible for god to not otherwise be responsible for everything, and cancel free will out, so he got around it by saying that for the instant it took him to create humanity (or whatever metaphysical terms you want to use--it's irrelevant) he limited himself in such a way that free will actually could exist.

As to the tibetans, he postulates the idea that ALL humans have an innate spiritual sense (even cave men) and thus have the ability to choose or reject God. Unfortunately my anthropology is too weak to conclusively disprove that statement, so I have to grant that it's at least possible. And since the weak atheist argument is already conceeded and I'm going for strong atheism on these guys, I have to accept their premises to continue the attack.

luvluv · 07-12-2003, 01:49 PM

Well, I think one very easy way to "live with it" is that we have no real idea what hell is like. We don't know if it is of eternal duration or of eternal consequence. There are passages in the Bible which suggest that those who choose to go to hell will simply be consumed, they will cease to exist. There is a passage in Revelation which suggests that hell itself will one day be consumed in a fire and destroyed.

The notion of an everlasting pit of torture is medeival in origin, and while it can be supported Biblically, so can annihiliationalism, and several other views.

I am comforted by the fact that from what I know of God personally, He is absolutely just, fair, and merciful. In the end, no one will be able to say they had a raw deal or that they never had a fair chance. No one will be able to say that they ended up where they ended up as a result of anything short of their naked will and desire. Of this, I am certain.

Unfortunately many people, probably some people here, simply cannot submit to anything above themselves, even if that thing is wholly knowledgable and wholly loving. The need to be in charge, to rule oneself, is preemininent in many... and it is this desire, unchecked, which is the only road to hell. Better to rule in hell than serve in heaven, as the man said.

07-12-2003, 02:25 PM

I am comforted by the fact that your god does not exist.

B. H. Manners · 07-12-2003, 06:52 PM

"You read the book of Job and you get the same message. Job's gripes seem really warranted. They do. Reading it for the first time, you are really on Job's side until God clarifies the issues in the latter chapters.""

BH------>Just how does God clarify the issues? To me "he" just raises more questions.

JCS · 07-13-2003, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Unfortunately many people, probably some people here, simply cannot submit to anything above themselves,even if that thing is wholly knowledgable and wholly loving.

If such a thing could be demonstrated many people would perhaps change their minds. Since this anything refuses to show itself, much less demonstrate the characteristics of wholly knowledgeable and wholly loving it could be stated you are only submiting to your imagination.

If the God of your beliefs is the Biblical deity, the character from that book hardly sounds absolutely just, fair, and merciful. To submit to such a tyrant would be a out of fear of consequence.

haverbob · 07-13-2003, 02:14 PM

If you are a Christian, then the words of Jesus come first and foremost. First, Jesus curiously didn't talk about burning in hell. He talked about weeping and gnashing of teeth of the people who can't get in to Heaven "Heaven is like the eye of a needle". I think most of the "burning in hell came from "Dante's Inferno", not the words of Jesus. If I'm wrong, I would be thankful for a correction. So I think this supposed psychotic has it wrong as does everyone else so far on this thread.

Secondly, I don't know where all of this talk about "good works", "bad works" is coming from. Jesus clearly said that one cannot get to Heaven through good works, only through the grace of God. As far as bad works go, someone can accept Jesus on their deathbed after a life of bad works and still be saved. Yes even Hitler, but I doubt he did that before he pulled the trigger on himself.

mosaic · 07-13-2003, 03:48 PM

I really dont know whats more arrogant than believing the universe was created for human beings, or that we were created by some higher diety simply because it loves us. Nothing is more arrogant than assuming our little subjective experiences and beliefs have ethereal signifance to the point where disbelieving can lead to damnation . Maybe we need a redeifntion of arrogance cause men who accept the earth as is, and need no supranatural rational for their existence certainly arent.

And the christian ideas of punishment are just vary in degrees of sickness. But when convinced that your little life as cosmic meaning, it makes more sense to think of all the good things fantasy offers. Afterall, good in this life isnt worth anything unless you'll be paid eternally for it.

Bill Snedden · 07-13-2003, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv
The need to be in charge, to rule oneself, is preemininent in many... and it is this desire, unchecked, which is the only road to hell.

But, and this is a serious question, can't God himself be described in these terms?

Regards,

Bill Snedden

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07-11-2003, 04:02 PM	#11
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	Just attack them on their own home range by saying the originator of Christianity is Satan. It makes sense to me.

07-11-2003, 05:03 PM	#12
Majody Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Tx Posts: 26	I'll tell you, that alone is one of the biggest problems I have with Xianity. As bad as that may seem, it is infinetly worse than that. But that's assuming it actually exists No "all-loving" god would do that. And I'm with Taffer, not even Hitler deserves that.

07-12-2003, 02:40 AM	#13
Nic Hautamaki Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Surrey, BC, Canada Posts: 27	well, unfortunately, I think that the christians ally succeeded in formulating a rationally coherant model of how free will can exist apart from God, such that God is not responsible for our choices. Namely, that God made himself not-omnipotent for the time it took to create us, in order for actual free will to exist. The christian conceded that it's rationally impossible for god to not otherwise be responsible for everything, and cancel free will out, so he got around it by saying that for the instant it took him to create humanity (or whatever metaphysical terms you want to use--it's irrelevant) he limited himself in such a way that free will actually could exist. As to the tibetans, he postulates the idea that ALL humans have an innate spiritual sense (even cave men) and thus have the ability to choose or reject God. Unfortunately my anthropology is too weak to conclusively disprove that statement, so I have to grant that it's at least possible. And since the weak atheist argument is already conceeded and I'm going for strong atheism on these guys, I have to accept their premises to continue the attack.

07-12-2003, 01:49 PM	#14
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	Well, I think one very easy way to "live with it" is that we have no real idea what hell is like. We don't know if it is of eternal duration or of eternal consequence. There are passages in the Bible which suggest that those who choose to go to hell will simply be consumed, they will cease to exist. There is a passage in Revelation which suggests that hell itself will one day be consumed in a fire and destroyed. The notion of an everlasting pit of torture is medeival in origin, and while it can be supported Biblically, so can annihiliationalism, and several other views. I am comforted by the fact that from what I know of God personally, He is absolutely just, fair, and merciful. In the end, no one will be able to say they had a raw deal or that they never had a fair chance. No one will be able to say that they ended up where they ended up as a result of anything short of their naked will and desire. Of this, I am certain. Unfortunately many people, probably some people here, simply cannot submit to anything above themselves, even if that thing is wholly knowledgable and wholly loving. The need to be in charge, to rule oneself, is preemininent in many... and it is this desire, unchecked, which is the only road to hell. Better to rule in hell than serve in heaven, as the man said.

07-12-2003, 02:25 PM	#15
atheist_in_foxhole Guest Posts: n/a	I am comforted by the fact that your god does not exist.

07-12-2003, 06:52 PM	#16
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	"You read the book of Job and you get the same message. Job's gripes seem really warranted. They do. Reading it for the first time, you are really on Job's side until God clarifies the issues in the latter chapters."" BH------>Just how does God clarify the issues? To me "he" just raises more questions.

07-13-2003, 02:14 PM	#18
haverbob Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Alabama Posts: 1,771	If you are a Christian, then the words of Jesus come first and foremost. First, Jesus curiously didn't talk about burning in hell. He talked about weeping and gnashing of teeth of the people who can't get in to Heaven "Heaven is like the eye of a needle". I think most of the "burning in hell came from "Dante's Inferno", not the words of Jesus. If I'm wrong, I would be thankful for a correction. So I think this supposed psychotic has it wrong as does everyone else so far on this thread. Secondly, I don't know where all of this talk about "good works", "bad works" is coming from. Jesus clearly said that one cannot get to Heaven through good works, only through the grace of God. As far as bad works go, someone can accept Jesus on their deathbed after a life of bad works and still be saved. Yes even Hitler, but I doubt he did that before he pulled the trigger on himself.

07-13-2003, 03:48 PM	#19
mosaic Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: anchorage Posts: 321	I really dont know whats more arrogant than believing the universe was created for human beings, or that we were created by some higher diety simply because it loves us. Nothing is more arrogant than assuming our little subjective experiences and beliefs have ethereal signifance to the point where disbelieving can lead to damnation . Maybe we need a redeifntion of arrogance cause men who accept the earth as is, and need no supranatural rational for their existence certainly arent. And the christian ideas of punishment are just vary in degrees of sickness. But when convinced that your little life as cosmic meaning, it makes more sense to think of all the good things fantasy offers. Afterall, good in this life isnt worth anything unless you'll be paid eternally for it.

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