Tercel

Hi Jefferson,
Nice to meet you.
That's not entirely true: Belief in these things in not a definitive Christian doctrine and there have been Christians who have denied either or both these.
I believe God is omipotent - although I "restrict" omnipotence to the ability to do anything that's possible. (As opposed to impossible or nonsensical - see "Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it" for an example of such). I'm not really sure about the immortality of the soul.

If God is omnipotent then could God destroy immortal souls?
This would seem to have two possible solutions. Either God could in theory destroy souls but has absolutely and unchangably decided not to do so. Or it is simply not possible to destroy a soul - and hence outside the ability of even omnipotence.

Theli

Tercel...
If god wants to destroy the souls or not has nothing to do with omnipotence. The question is, is he even capable?
So I would say he would be incapable of destroying them, or they were never immortal to begin with.

Answerer

Well guys, it is important to know the defination of omnipotent first before arguing further. Omnipotent means the ability to do things that are possible. For example, God can't make a square circle or things like that. Simply to say God has His own limits and Bible never states that God creates souls but rather God creates the body of man.

sighhswolf

This is abit weird, don't you think?
You are applying attributes to a being youself claim to be "inconcievable" to the finite mind of man.
BTW, how can intelligence really be infinite?
How can you, by observing a being's actions reach the conclusion that it's intelligence is infinite?

Yes Theli I do think it is weird, by the way thats not my personal thoughts but what I perceive
to be questions unanswered by the christian faith.
Christians want a god with whom they can relate.
They want god to be recognizable and accessible.
Understandable----- everything that exists based on our limited knowledge has qualities, attributes
a nature, a place in time and space.
Humans have the ability to understand based on
observation, we study the effects of the physical
laws of the natural universe.
We document, quantify and qualify information and then draw conclusions from those investigative
actions, but these actions cannot be applied to the christian god.
Christians want their god to be an all
powerful, supernatural being without limitations of any kind.
A contradiction in terms. The minute you assign attributes to anything or anyone you have automatically placed limitations on the subject.
In scientific terms nothing exists outside of it's nature, and that nature will define its characteristics and attributes.
The christian is faced with a god whom they want to be unlimited in scope and power, so they assign "finite" qualities to what they consider to be an "infinite" being.
This is a major contradiction and it creates a conceptual trap. It cannot be logical or rational to assign this being attributes , so that christians have a reference point and some kind of understanding of it's nature, and still maintain that it is "unlimited" in scope. The two ideas are simply incompatable.
I found it most interesting that the Catholic Almanac lists the following attributes of the christian god;
almighty, eternal, holy, immortal,immense, immutable, ineffable,infinite,invisable, just, loving, merciful, most high, most wise,omnipotent, omnipresent,patient, perfection,provident, supreme, and true.

Followed by ----get this----"Incomprehensible".
Does it seem that this last attribute is somewhat out of place here?
How is it possible to list 22 attributes and then in the same breath claim "incomprehensibility".

To the human mind existence means "finite" because everything based on what we know about nature is finite by definition. We have no evidence of anything that is "Infinite".
If christians say god exists, they have in effect
given this being a "finite" nature.
George Smith comments, "On the one hand, they favor the notion of a supernatural being, a being without restrictions, a being with an infinite nature.
On the other hand they want a god with characteristics, a god that can be identified.
Therefore they must conceive of a way to give their god a nature while avoiding the consequences of limitations."

And low and behold they found what they needed in the "unlimited Attributes" of omnipotence and omniscience, these were designed to be used to give their god substance, without restricting it's nature.
The contradiction still remains because unlimited attributes and specified qualities cannot be seperated from natural limitations.
(at least in our tiny human brains)
All real existence is qualitative and has specific limitations so they are back to square one.

" The phenomenon of the "unlimited attributes" is the central epistemological contradiction of the christian god."

Wolf

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Amos

God does not run a quarry and maybe the idea of God presented here is wrong. Is it not clear to all that our God is the God of the living?

If so God does not destroy souls but is found in the souls of the living. If we wish to kill our soul that will be our choice and I don't think God really cares.

Theli

sighhswolf...
Infinity is easy to comprehend/believe if you never question it.
Of course, if a being is to exist it must have borders and boundaries. If you think of a line with infinite length, can that line really exist? It has no edges, no center and therefore no geometry and is equal to no line at all.
The same goes ofcourse with the infinity of time, you can't choose a point in that time, since the time prior to that point is infinite. Wich means that the point will never be reached.
Can infinity exist?

Excacly.

Amos...
I have an interesting question, does god live?
If he does, then why doesn't he also require a god of his own?
Perhaps an half-assed question, sorry...

Seriously though, I rather not assume supernaturalism if not absolutely necessary. And least of all that wich is claimed to be manifested by an omnipotent god. It would be impossible to know wich god is responsible.
"Trickster god".

GunnerJ

Gentlemen, ladies, there appears to be a very accute misconspetion afoot here.

A retort this pithy and misguided deserves no response, but I put it here to show the lead in to...

While I appriciate the denfense, this is incorect.

The reason why you don't see this as a metaphor for God's omnipotence is simple- it's not.

Only one person got it right:

This goes to the heart of what I was saying. If something is "immortal," it doesn't mean that it will, definatly, live forever, only that it can. Perhaps someone can destroy an immortal soul... so what? Being "red" doesn't imply permanent, eternal "redness." A red wall may, concievably, be painted green. Similarly, something that can live forever may not. "Immortal" does not mean "indestrucable." It means "capable of living forever."

Theli

"So what?" ?!?

This is excacly the point. If a soul (a conscious being) is destroyed it dies. If something can die it's mortal. That's the very definition of mortality. If something is mortal it can't very well be immortal.

Outtakes from Dictionary.com

Immortality- "Endless life or existence"
Mortal- "Liable or subject to death"

[ April 07, 2002: Message edited by: Theli ]</p>

sighhswolf

Its Loki....the god of mischief, the trickster.
Mormons believe that there was more than one god
involved in the creation.
So do other sects, the idea that Jehovah has a boss is really quite common.
Not for fundamentalist christians though.
And I agree with Rimstalker, that the capability to destroy does not indicate a propensity for destruction.
I think Amos summed things up rather nicely. If there is a god (which I see no evidence of)
he/she/it doesnt give a rats ass about what we as humans think. The questions of your immortal soul are best answered by your own intellect, because organized religion doesnt really care about your immortal soul, they are more concerned with how much you put into the collection plate.
They are more concerned about how much free labor they can get from you for special projects.
They are more concerned about saving a fetus, that has absolutely no self awareness, than they are about the mother who may die from childbirth.
Does this christian god have the capability to destroy souls, it may....if it exists, it may if there is a "soul" if if if if if if ...........
And not a solid bit of evidence anywhere.
Here's a question for you guys:
When you step outside your front door, are you aware of the insect that you just smashed into oblivion? Are you aware that you may have just destroyed a living organism?
Or do you have a little flash of enlightenment somewhere deep in the recesses of your mind, but just dont give a rats ass, because it it an insignificant speck of an insect, and who cares whether another little crappy insect dies?


Wolf

TrueThinker

Hmmm....What about the conscience of an individual? Does it have dimensions? Can it be perceived, measured, or detected in a way that is acceptable to scientific standards? Should we therefore conclude that it doesn't really exist? Is that why we call it the con-science, because it goes against science? But the conscience resides in a human 'being'. Can we fully comprehend this? Hmmm...

Anyway, don't want to drift too far off topic.