Veil of Fire

Many Christians I talk to say that someone who never had the opportunity to know Christ doesn't actually go to Hell. Thus, members of some isolated tribe in darkest Africa that no missionary can get to should theoretically ascend blissfully into heaven on their deaths.

This position usually arises in response to my accusations of cruelty on the part of their God, only slowly getting around to saving people not in the middle east from the evils of Hellfire.

Unfortunately, nobody bothers to think about the implications of ACTUALLY believing this.

If the above were true, in order to assure the maximum number of souls are 'saved' and go to Heaven, Christianity would be a hidden, secret, underground mystery cult. They would only attempt to convert people who are certain to be receptive to the philosophy, because a botched conversion attempt damns a soul to Hell (since they heard of Jesus, but then rejected him). This vast practice of shipping missionaries willy-nilly around the globe to places where new beliefs would not be easily accepted would be unheard of!

If this belief is true, then Christians as a whole, by their own hands, have personally condemned countless millions of people who would otherwise have gone happily to the celestial kingdom. Rather than SAVING these souls, missionaries merely sent the vast majority of them straight to hell by exposing them to this dangerous belief when their own gods had worked just fine for them for the past few millenia. What culture would readily embrace a new religion over thousands of years of tradition based on the word of a few kooks in robes and a book they can't even read?

Yet, if Christians actually hold the "Never know Christ, go to Heaven" belief, that's exactly what they expect.

Furthermore, if one or two of the natives actually DOES turn to Christ, what does he gain that he didn't have before? NOTHING! He was going to Heaven anyway! All he has now is the knowledge that the missionary sent his entire family straight to hell.

To put it simply, if Christians REALLY believed that, there'd be no 'mission trips' or 'outreach programs', because they endanger eternal souls! Which, I suppose, is ok as long as they get their egos stoked, right?

Christianity would be a more secretive organization than the Masons if this belief was taken to its logical application. The fact that they AREN'T indicates that the people who profess this belief are lying through their teeth in order to make their God look more compassionate than he really is. Lies in service of the capital-T-truth of the capital-G-god.

Either that, or Christians ENJOY condeming others to hell for eternity. Like a sport. "Hey Bob, I made 2 Hutu tribes wail and gnash their teeth last month! How'd you do?" "Oh yeah? Well, I took three remote communist villiages in Siberia, two groups of pilgrims to Mecca, and an entire Buddist monastery and Fed-Ex'd them straight to Satan! Beat that!"

Joyous

A famous quote from Annie Dillard's book "A Pilgrim At Tinker's Creek"...........

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"

Prodros

And a not-so-famous (but still apt) quote from Terry Pratchett's Eric:

Interestingly enough, the gods of the Discworld have never bothered much about judging the souls of the dead, and so people only go to hell if that’s where they believe, in their deepest heart, that they deserve to go. Which they won’t do if they don’t know about it. This explains why it is important to shoot missionaries on sight.

Undercurrent

I might be so bold to suggest that knowledge of christainity would have died with its first believers. Of course, the first believers of christianity believed the older "What, you never heard of Jesus? Well off to hell with you then."

The other possibility is that, while hearing about Jesus and not believing it will send you to hell, so will knowing about Jesus and not trying to convert people. While giving your life so that your fellow man may live is awfully macho, letting yourself be tortured in hell for eternity so your fellow man can enjoy paradise requires balls of solid brass.

There's no reward structure in christianity for self-sacrifice in the next world, only for self-sacrifice in this one.

m.

Tom Sawyer

The Bible clearly states:

"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

When taken totally out of context, this suggests to me that Christ believed that no one should know about him since, being God and knowing everything, he knew that there would be billions of people who would know about him and not believe and, being a being of infinite love, would not want to condemn them to hellfire for eternity as a result.

Good call picking that up, Veil of Fire.

Veil of Fire

Thanks.

For all the response I'm getting tho, it seems like this was maybe discussed before?

atheist_in_foxhole

I've thought about this too, Veil. If the Xians REALLY wanted the maximum number of people to go to heaven, they would just keep their mouths shut. Everytime that they make an unsuccessful attempt to bring someone to Jesus, they're sending them straight to hell.

It's the same with abortion. Xians always say that an aborted fetus automatically goes to heaven, so shouldn't the Xians be *promoting* abortion? After all, if the fetus is born, there's a damn good chance that he or she will grow up to be a Muslim, Jew, Hindu, atheist etc.

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ

I asked that of Jack Chick's web site once. They said killing people is wrong. I wrote back saying, sure, but you're forgiven, and a baby abortion mill would put LOTS of souls into heaven quickly.
Never heard back.

Veil of Fire

*LOL!!* That's fantastic!!

GunnerJ

If I recall correctly, Xians were ordered by Jesus to "spread the word." Thus making Christ's message the most disasterous Operation: Foot-Bazooka in history. In addition, I have heard it claimed that until the entire world has heard of Christ, the End Times will not come, and Xians won't get to enjoy the rapture, or so the myth goes.

This type of policy makes much more sense if you assume that Xianity is a man-made cult with a limited, human perspective, believing that the Roman Empire encompassed most of the world. It is feasable that the whole world could have been Saved and the Rapture brought about before to many people were lost, if the above view is taken. But if we assume that Xianity and its teachings/commands are the revelation of an omnipotent, omniscient God, who would have known how large the world is and the signifigant time nessisary to reach all of it (nevermind the research to generate the necissary technology)...

Well, it just seems a bit silly, to understate.