doc58

Tom in KC,
you wrote
"I guess it all comes down to what Jesus precisely means by “seek”. There may be things external to Christianity that influence our thinking about Christianity."

I think the meaning of seek is self-evident but for me, my entire frame of reference of seeking was within Christianity, nothing external.


You said, "If those things come to bear and we no longer believe, is it possible that we are no longer seeking Him?"

It is hard to seek someone who you know longer believe exists. The distressing thing is to believe and then find that belief gone in spite of wanting it not to be gone and asking the one in whom you believe to protect it.

You wrote, "Perhaps, these “external” things are the reason for Jesus’ reference to entering through the narrow gates in a following verse in Matthew."

Is that an "God speaking to you?" or did you determine this interpretation based on sound hermeneutics?

My lack of belief is much more complex than some O.T. scriptures. I limited myself to one section in Deut because I wanted to cause you to see the obvious- that at least one scripture is not of God. If a person allows one is not then they have taken a very important step. Your response about Deut 22 is incorrect. The passage specifically talkes about a cloth being proof. Regardless, the undisputable fact is that there is NO proof of virginity that would apply back then. For me, the realization that the Bible is not inerrant or infallible was huge. For many, like Helen it is not.

Helen,
I will tell you more about my journey later.
Thanks

HelenM

So as not to be misleading, I'd like to add to this. I didn't believe the Bible was inerrant when I was 'saved'. I think that has always made it less of a 'core' doctrine to me than some people.

Having questions about the essential claims of Christianity has been huge for me. So I think I can understand, with all due respect, some of what you've been through, doc58

I think people's faith breaks at different points. For me it was a combination of mental illness - that make me think 'outside the box' more than I would have, otherwise - and the response of Christians to me being ill. Although it seems very hard to explain this to Christians, it really does make it hard for me to believe 'Jesus is real', if Christians don't seem any better than other people - and in some cases worse (because of what they 'must do', because of what they believe).

I mean, they are supposed to have GOD indwelling them. If that makes no difference, that does say something to me about God, surely...?!

IOW I ought to know that the resurrection happened and Jesus is real by looking at the lives of Christians today. If I don't see that evidence today as I expected to, how can that not shed doubt on their claims about 2,000 years ago? I was not there so I have to look at today and draw the best conclusions I can.

(With all due respect to credible scholarship )

love
Helen

kwigibo

that's a good point, Helen, i never thought of it like that

mongrel

Sorry to jump in, I've only just read this, and Helen's comment:

reminded me of something I read on another web-site. I don't remember the figures or where I read it, but in the US it seems the ratio of atheists in prison is much lower than outside prison. Could anybody give any further details?

kwigibo

there's a couple of recent threads here on that very subject, try the morality forum

HelenM

Gosh darn it, I think I just helped 'the other side' again

love
Helen

kwigibo

if u score enough own goals you'll have to join our side by default.

HelenM

True but there will be no joy in it if I am not really on your side and suddenly am moved to quote John 3:16 at you mercilessly

I think I am totally untrustworthy as an ally

love
Helen

kwigibo

It's not like we need your help or anything, we're not that pathetic <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

P.S. r u a vampire or something, get some sleep

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: kwigibo ]</p>

HelenM