Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Buffman · 11-27-2002, 09:33 PM

My wife and I had some friends over for supper Wednesday night, and it came time to eat. My wife asked me to say grace, and I deflected the request to the kids, who said their standard "God our Father" prayer (sung to the tune of Frere Jacques). I didn't think much of it, but tonight she told me it really upset her, but she didn't mention it in the interest of peace. I thought that was a good sign.

(OK! I am rather late getting back here and up to speed. However, I thought this info might be useful...even if I am not all that enamoured with the title when applied to a loving partnership.)

"Fighting Back: A Manual for Freethinkers" edited by Tim Madigan and Tom Flynn assisted by Ranjii Sandu, published by Free Inquiry, 1993 (The Council for Democratic and Secular Humanism [CODESH],Inc. P.O. Box 664, Buffalo NY 14226-0664)

This 101 page booklet contains some excellent "What to do/say if" type information/ guidance. For instance:

Responses to:

"The Dinner Guest who Suggests saying Grace...at Your Home."

"Dinner Hosts Who Suggest Saying Grace...in Their Home."

In your case, it appears that you might gain more from the discussion concerning being in "Their Home." (At least for now.)

The value of this booklet is that it provides the reader with a little "prior preparation" for those issues that can arise, all too suddenly, in a society dominated by faith believers.

There is a phone number on the booklet, but I have to wonder if it, or the address , remain current. Here is the phone number: 1-800-458-1366.

Proxima Centauri · 11-28-2002, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by x-xian:


She asked if we were ever going to get back to normal. I said, if normal requires me to believe everything you say, then no, we won't.... I feel like, why in the HELL should I allow her to DICTATE what exactly I believe? I impose no such requirements on HER!!

She says she feels that there is now a wedge between us. I told her if there was, she put it there. My feelings towards her haven't changed one iota. Is it totally unreasonable of me to even hope she'll accept my non-belief?
I don't know if we're ever going to resolve this. Just when I think things might be looking up, down we go again

Darren

You say, "Why should I allow her to dictate what exactly I believe. I impose no such requirement on HER." It is important that you do not attempt to impose such a requirement. Every time such a requirement is attempted the message is given, 'In this family religious freedom doesn't count.' Then the likelihood of similar requirement being pushed onto you and the children increases.
Try and be calm and moderate however she behaves. This is a council of perfection which may need more self discipline than is realistic. Whenever she is being reasonable and has temporarily stopped making religious requirements make special efforts to be warm, giving and rewarding. When she makes religious requirements try and stop being rewarding, temporarily. Sometimes arguing can give a type of social contact which is rewarding in a dysfunctional way; try and avoid giving such dysfunctional rewards.
Overall I think things are getting slowly better. In your recent posts you are not talking about threats of divorce. You are telling us more often about times when you and your wife got on well for a little bit. You are saying less about times when you argue. I hope you are arguing less, though every time there is yet another spat it feels to you, unreasonably, as if you were back to square one. Try not to be discouraged.
This has turned your wife's world upside down as well as yours. It will take her time to adjust. Please be patient. If she hopes that your atheism is just a phase this will help her adjust even though I understand this is frustrating for you.

Vicar Philip · 11-29-2002, 04:16 PM

I trust everyone at II had a pleasant Thanksgiving.

It's been relatively quiet on the religious front here. Today I wrote a letter to our former pastor, and when my wife read it, she actually seemed pretty impressed. I thought I would share it with you folks:

Quote:

Hi Pastor,

My wife and I greatly enjoyed our visit to your church last Sunday, and plan to attend again this Sunday.

My purpose in writing to you today is twofold; first, I have some questions I would like to address to you about Christianity in general, and second, I would like to find a Monday or Tuesday evening when my wife and I can meet with you.

Since the questions I have concerning Christianity would be better addressed directly by you to me, I would like to ask them of you separate from our meeting with you and us. The in-person meeting, in my opinion, is more of a marriage counseling session and not necessarily to answer my religious questions.

The preservation of my marriage is my utmost concern, and hence I want to focus exclusively on that when we do finally get to talk to you. I don't see any need to take up more of your time with my questions when I could ask them via e-mail, and allow you to answer me at your leisure.

So, if you'll allow me, I will present you with some of the questions I have which prevent me from believing in God:

1) Why would God allow nasty, selfish, self-serving, hypocritical people to attain positions of power in his Church? I have some certain individuals in mind, of course, but in thinking about it, this concept can be expanded to many evil people proclaiming to be Christians throughout history.

2) Why would God give us the intelligence to possess reason and rationality, and then expect us to not use those gifts when it comes to questions of God and the Bible? Are we really to blindly accept everything other men tell us, just because THEY say they were "inspired by God"?

3) Why do Christians proclaim that only by believing in Jesus can humans arrive at the pearly gates of heaven? Do they really intend to leave out the other 60% of the human race who believe otherwise? What makes Christians the only ones who are "right" about God's intentions?

4) How can a God described as omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipotent, all-loving, and all-knowing allow the pain, misery, and suffering by so many in our world? (If the answer involves Free Will, please see the next question.)

5) If we are to assume that human beings have Free Will, doesn't that mean that God does NOT know everything? If God knows our every actions, past, present, and future, how can we state that we have Free Will?

6) One of the fundamental tenets of Christianity is the concept of Jesus dying on the cross to forgive humans of sin. Does this refer to "Original Sin" or sins committed by humans who are aware of basic human morality (any act which causes harm to another is wrong)?

7) If Original Sin, that implies we are "guilty" of sin at birth. To be guilty, doesn't that require we consciously choose to commit evil? Is simply being born, then, evil? Even though we didn't consciously ask to be born?

8) If sin committed by morally-aware humans is instead intended, where is the justice in a third party being punished for someone else's crimes? Doesn't it make more sense to punish the party actually responsible for the crime?

9) Given the cruelty of nature with natural disasters and the like, where no Free Will can be said to be involved, how do Christians account for the seemingly needless gratuitous suffering and death of innocent children?

10) What is the purpose of Prayer? If God already has his plan in place, and we are powerless to affect destiny, what could possibly come of Prayer? Is it perhaps something instead that makes the devout feel better emotionally rather than actually accomplishing anything?

I was going to stop at 10, but I have to ask another question:

11) Most children follow the same faith as their parents. In other words, we don't see a Christian family produce a Buddhist very often. Would it be reasonable, then, to assume that religion is actually more of a tradition than something absolute induced by God?

Pastor, these are questions I realize are not a simple yes/no answer. I have put a lot of thought into asking them. I know you will put a lot of thought into answering them, as that's the type of person you are.

My wife is afraid that if I don't believe in God, I won't go to heaven with her and my children. Obviously, as I don't believe in any of it, that is not a concern _I_ share, but I want to comfort her as much as possible. I certainly am not proclaiming these new beliefs I have to cause grief and strife in our marriage; rather, most of the questions I have asked you have bothered me for a long time, I just didn't vocalize them. After the awful treatment of my wife at the Tolono church, these questions were brought to the front burner of my mind, and I would be dishonest and hypocritical to say that I still believed, when in fact I have all these doubts and flat-out skepticism about Christianity and religion in general.

Thank you for your genuine and honest concern, something my wife and I find so little of in a lot of the supposed Christians around us. Not all, mind you, but a select few who are, unfortunatley, in positions they don't deserve.

Darren

I also plan to post my 11 questions to some of the theists around here and a few other places.

Everyone take care!

[ November 29, 2002: Message edited by: x-xian ]

HelenM · 11-29-2002, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by x-xian:
Today I wrote a letter to our former pastor, and when my wife read it, she actually seemed pretty impressed.

I hope you had a good family time at Thanksgiving, Darren. I'm glad your wife was impressed with your letter! I think you expressed yourself clearly and well, so I'm not surprised. I hope she is pleased you care so much about the marriage.

I wish you the best in finding theists who will take your theological questions seriously and be willing to have have good, substantive discussions with you about them.

take care
Helen

The Other Michael · 11-29-2002, 05:24 PM

Hi Darren,

Quote:

After the awful treatment of my wife at the Tolono church, these questions were brought to the front burner of my mind . . .

I think this was a good move. By letting your wife read it she becomes aware that you ARE concerned about her, and that your "crisis of faith" was in part precipitated by your concerns about wrongs done her at that church.

This doesn't resolve her concerns about your burning in Hell, but it may get her to feel a little responsibility in your deconversion, and possibly she'll be a little more favorably disposed towards your "change".

cheers,
Michael

Vicar Philip · 11-29-2002, 06:51 PM

My wife had to work tonight, so before she left, we talked a little about all this. She had received an e-mail from a friend of hers who just recently went through a very painful divorce, about our age, leaving two kids with broken homes.

Of course this strikes close to home. My wife replied to her that she feels she shouldn't have to stay with an atheist. That she still loves me, and yes I still have morals(!), but she can't stay with me forever.

Again, my hopes are the Pastor, if he's worth his salt, will make her see that no matter what I believe, I am still the best thing for her and our kids. How could she think otherwise????

I hate this shit.

The Other Michael · 11-29-2002, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by x-xian:
That she still loves me, and yes I still have morals(!), but she can't stay with me forever.

Hi Darren,

The answer to that is dead simple. She just needs to stay with you and your kids while you are alive - after that she'll be separated from you for eternity, which certainly gets rid of the "forever" condition.

It must be horribly frustrating for you to try and deal with crap like that. I'd be tempted to just answer back in complete non-sequitors - one irrational statement deserving another.

I sure hope that old pastor can talk some sense into her. It is starting to look to me like she's really struggling to find justification for her actions in the church nonsense. Could it be that she actually wants a divorce, and is just trying to force you into being the bad guy to salve her conscience?

best of luck,
Michael

Blankman · 11-29-2002, 09:48 PM

x-xian, questions to ask of your wife?

1) Surely your childrens "heaven" would involve being happy and having their father there. Could they be happy in heaven knowing that their father is burning in hell for all eternity? Doesn't sound like heaven to me!

2) If one, or both, of her children become athiests, would she abandon them also? Would her idea of heaven be possible without her children there? Living for eternity without them? For me, that would be more like HELL!

HelenM · 11-30-2002, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by x-xian:
 My wife replied to her that she feels she shouldn't have to stay with an atheist. That she still loves me, and yes I still have morals(!), but she can't stay with me forever.

I wonder if she could write out 11 reasons why? I just don't understand what you are doing that can be so different that she feels this way. It doesn't seem to me that her feelings are based in reality about your marriage

Quote:

Again, my hopes are the Pastor, if he's worth his salt, will make her see that no matter what I believe, I am still the best thing for her and our kids. How could she think otherwise????

Perhaps the answer is that she's not thinking very clearly - she's being irrational. I'm glad she's willing to talk with a third person about the marriage. I don't see how separating from you will really make her happy and I hope he or someone can help her think a little more clearly about all she'd lose if she went that route.

Quote:

I hate this shit.

I can see why. It sounds awful.

take care
Helen

Vicar Philip · 11-30-2002, 06:07 PM

Michael,

No, I don't believe she has any ulterior motive in making that statement. I think she thinks that if she scares me enough, I'll backslide (hehe) and Praise Jebus again (fat chance). As someone else had posted a while back, I think if there is ever an x-xian sized hole in her life for any period of time, she's going to realize what a mistake it would be to give the old atheist the boot.

Blankman,

I made the mistake already of mentioning the kids becoming atheists to her... boy was she pissed. One thing she said that made me almost laugh (I didn't, I'm not THAT stupid) was: "Oh, great. So dumb ol' Mom will believe in God, while YOU believe in science and have explanations for all the things I don't!!" Couldn't have said it better myself, but I don't think she's dumb. Just misled.

Helen, of course she's being irrational, she's a Christian!!

(Just teasing you.)

I got a reply from the pastor about my questions. He said they were all very good questions, and that "you are closer to the Kingdom than you think." I'm not quite sure what he meant by that. Guess I'll found out on the 16th of December, that's when we're supposed to meet with him.

He'll need some pretty heavy-duty answers to dissuade me from what I know is true. Guess I need to do some studying of the Holy Bible (smirk) and pick out some choice verses. Fortunately for me, common sense and reason are on my side.

Darren

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11-27-2002, 09:33 PM	#201
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	My wife and I had some friends over for supper Wednesday night, and it came time to eat. My wife asked me to say grace, and I deflected the request to the kids, who said their standard "God our Father" prayer (sung to the tune of Frere Jacques). I didn't think much of it, but tonight she told me it really upset her, but she didn't mention it in the interest of peace. I thought that was a good sign. (OK! I am rather late getting back here and up to speed. However, I thought this info might be useful...even if I am not all that enamoured with the title when applied to a loving partnership.) "Fighting Back: A Manual for Freethinkers" edited by Tim Madigan and Tom Flynn assisted by Ranjii Sandu, published by Free Inquiry, 1993 (The Council for Democratic and Secular Humanism [CODESH],Inc. P.O. Box 664, Buffalo NY 14226-0664) This 101 page booklet contains some excellent "What to do/say if" type information/ guidance. For instance: Responses to: "The Dinner Guest who Suggests saying Grace...at Your Home." "Dinner Hosts Who Suggest Saying Grace...in Their Home." In your case, it appears that you might gain more from the discussion concerning being in "Their Home." (At least for now.) The value of this booklet is that it provides the reader with a little "prior preparation" for those issues that can arise, all too suddenly, in a society dominated by faith believers. There is a phone number on the booklet, but I have to wonder if it, or the address , remain current. Here is the phone number: 1-800-458-1366.

11-29-2002, 06:51 PM	#206
Vicar Philip Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Cozy little chapel of me own Posts: 1,162	My wife had to work tonight, so before she left, we talked a little about all this. She had received an e-mail from a friend of hers who just recently went through a very painful divorce, about our age, leaving two kids with broken homes. Of course this strikes close to home. My wife replied to her that she feels she shouldn't have to stay with an atheist. That she still loves me, and yes I still have morals(!), but she can't stay with me forever. Again, my hopes are the Pastor, if he's worth his salt, will make her see that no matter what I believe, I am still the best thing for her and our kids. How could she think otherwise???? I hate this shit.

11-29-2002, 09:48 PM	#208
Blankman Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Midwest Posts: 41	x-xian, questions to ask of your wife? 1) Surely your childrens "heaven" would involve being happy and having their father there. Could they be happy in heaven knowing that their father is burning in hell for all eternity? Doesn't sound like heaven to me! 2) If one, or both, of her children become athiests, would she abandon them also? Would her idea of heaven be possible without her children there? Living for eternity without them? For me, that would be more like HELL!

11-30-2002, 06:07 PM	#210
Vicar Philip Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Cozy little chapel of me own Posts: 1,162	Michael, No, I don't believe she has any ulterior motive in making that statement. I think she thinks that if she scares me enough, I'll backslide (hehe) and Praise Jebus again (fat chance). As someone else had posted a while back, I think if there is ever an x-xian sized hole in her life for any period of time, she's going to realize what a mistake it would be to give the old atheist the boot. Blankman, I made the mistake already of mentioning the kids becoming atheists to her... boy was she pissed. One thing she said that made me almost laugh (I didn't, I'm not THAT stupid) was: "Oh, great. So dumb ol' Mom will believe in God, while YOU believe in science and have explanations for all the things I don't!!" Couldn't have said it better myself, but I don't think she's dumb. Just misled. Helen, of course she's being irrational, she's a Christian!! (Just teasing you.) I got a reply from the pastor about my questions. He said they were all very good questions, and that "you are closer to the Kingdom than you think." I'm not quite sure what he meant by that. Guess I'll found out on the 16th of December, that's when we're supposed to meet with him. He'll need some pretty heavy-duty answers to dissuade me from what I know is true. Guess I need to do some studying of the Holy Bible (smirk) and pick out some choice verses. Fortunately for me, common sense and reason are on my side. Darren

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