Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dostf · 08-06-2002, 01:11 PM

Truth is not: dependant on time or space ie. "found in the past" or "to be found in the future"- it is progressive.

Truth is not: for sale in any way, shape, or form.

Truth is not: expressable in words.

Truth is not: contrary to reason.

Truth is not: "outside of you somewhere".ie. separate from the human being.

Truth is not: related to anything else.

Truth is not: "achievable" by any religious, philosophical, logical, or scientific "path".

Truth is not: dependant on any kind of "faith" whatsoever.

Truth is not: related to any "moral code" or "ritual behaviour of any kind".

Truth is not: an understanding of some kind.

TRUTH IS:

Truth is: a wholeness that may be defined as the human being.

Truth is: a living- not a "feeling" "understanding" "idea" etc.

Truth is: progressive-as is the human being.

Truth is: in one aspect relative to our individual "situation"

Truth is: "past" the "supposed existance of self"

Truth is: explained by a "reason based on science"

Truth is : " a natural living"

Truth is : "past the stage of love" - but is dependant on it.

Truth is : a word used to describe "a living".

Truth is : you and me -if only we didn't think of "ourselves" as "something we are not"

Any questions, comments, are welcomed. I will try to respond as soon as possible...

Thanks....

WJ · 08-06-2002, 01:54 PM

Neat post! Let me try the first set, my comments in brackets[]:

Truth is not: dependant on time or space ie. "found in the past" or "to be found in the future"- it is progressive.

[ Truth is time depended for our understanding of it thru conscious existence, which in turn, is completely dependend upon time]

Truth is not: expressable in words.

[In some cases, truth in fact, is an ineffable experience thru the phemonenon of living life. There will always be something that glimmers and twinkles but will not be caught]

Truth is not: contrary to reason.

[What is reason in the face of truth?]

Truth is not: "outside of you somewhere".ie. separate from the human being.

[Is mathmatics a discovery or invention?]

Truth is not: related to anything else.
[whew.]

Truth is not: "achievable" by any religious, philosophical, logical, or scientific "path".

[Truth may be found in the (understanding of) will to live.]

Truth is not: dependant on any kind of "faith" whatsoever.

[Wrong; try Kant's synthetic apriori]

Truth is not: related to any "moral code" or "ritual behaviour of any kind".

[Is it thru reason we seek to be moral creatures? You may find there is some argument for pragmatism]

Truth is not: an understanding of some kind.

[Truth may an understanding that we lack understanding. But what really is understanding? Do we all understand/perceive the meaning of truth the same way? And what does it all mean?]

Maybe truth seeks understanding. But we must first define the meaning/purpose of understanding a truth.

snatchbalance · 08-06-2002, 03:15 PM

"What is truth? said the jesting Pilot, and would not stay for an answer."

Francis Bacon

dostf · 08-06-2002, 04:52 PM

wj:
Thanks for the reply...here's some thoughts about them....

[ Truth is time depended for our understanding of it thru conscious existence, which in turn, is completely dependend upon time]

- truth is not an understanding, but a living. This is not time dependant.

In some cases, truth in fact, is an ineffable experience thru the phemonenon of living life. There will always be something that glimmers and twinkles but will not be caught]

- Do you mean by this that life experiences themselves offer us the truth in some cases?

[What is reason in the face of truth?]

- Reason is a valuable tool that enables us to dismiss the false in ourselves, our knowledge, and our understandings- but it is limited

Is mathmatics a discovery or invention?]

- it is one expression of humans in an attempt to explain truth- it is a "part" of the "whole" that is the human being. It will always be imcomplete because of this ( as is science, philosophy etc..)

[Truth may be found in the (understanding of) will to live.]

- one might say (will to live) is instinctual. Understanding our will to live will not lead anywhere in my opinion. The point here was no "path" will lead one to an "end" represented by "truth".

[Wrong; try Kant's synthetic apriori]

- my Kant is poor my apologies. The idea here is "faith" and "belief" are enemies to reason and living for oneself that something is true or not.

[Is it thru reason we seek to be moral creatures? You may find there is some argument for pragmatism]

- The idea here is morality and codes of behaviour are insufficient to "live truth". Morality and codes of behaviour are subject to human need and variable. Religions are a good example of this. Morals are a starting point, not a ending point.

[Truth may an understanding that we lack understanding. But what really is understanding? Do we all understand/perceive the meaning of truth the same way? And what does it all mean?]

- Again truth is not an understanding of some kind but a living.

Be seeing you...

WJ · 08-07-2002, 04:18 AM

Snatch!

Good one. I forgot this one from the book 'zen and the art of motorcycle maintanence':

"Truth knocks at your door and you say, go away, I'm looking for the truth."

BTW, I still like ...truth seeks understanding; understanding seeks truth, because it reeks of subjective/objective truths.

Too, I hesitate to add Keats' 'beauty is truth...' because truth can be ugly to some. And that might be because some folks 'can't handle the truth'.

EDIT: Oops, overlooked another one...: 'Truth is Subjectivity'- soren keirkegaard

[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: WJ ]</p>

Morgan · 08-07-2002, 08:45 AM

I can't say I believe in truth. Not absolute truth; just different ways of looking at things, some more plausible then others. Its probably why I'm an agnostic and refused to accept any faith.

I think that mathematics only limits our understanding. Yes, it has given us a great many things, but I believe it has denied an even greater amount, things that we will never see because of the mathematics that has been ingrained in us since childhood. For us, 2 + 2 may never equal 5.

Language is also a culprit of this. What would our thoughts be if we had no words? We shall never know, because that is the way we will always think.

"Truth is what you make it."

Adrian Selby · 08-07-2002, 09:39 AM

how does this mish mash nonsense from some college student's poster collection constitute philosophy?

Truth is you and me? what kind of arse is that?

sorry that wasn't more constructive, i just don't have the time to ask what could be meaningfully said to be true if it is simply, among other things, you and me. If we're true, then we're not being false.

I love your post by the way

Adrian

Keith Russell · 08-07-2002, 10:34 AM

Greetings:

Truth is existence is reality.

Truth is. Existence exists. A is A.

Keith Russell.

Keith Russell · 08-07-2002, 10:46 AM

dostf said:

TRUTH IS NOT
1. Truth is not: dependant on time or space ie. "found in the past" or "to be found in the future"- it is progressive.

2. Truth is not: for sale in any way, shape, or form.

3. Truth is not: expressable in words.

--And yet this is exactly what you are trying to do: to express in these ten sentences your view of what 'truth' isn't.

4. Truth is not: contrary to reason.

5. Truth is not: "outside of you somewhere".ie. separate from the human being.

--So, if truth is 'within' us, what word/concept should we use to refer to that which is outside of us?

6. Truth is not: related to anything else.

--What else is there but truth?

7. Truth is not: "achievable" by any religious, philosophical, logical, or scientific "path".

--Then, by what method did you arrive at these twenty-one statements?

8. Truth is not: dependant on any kind of "faith" whatsoever.

9. Truth is not: related to any "moral code" or "ritual behaviour of any kind".

10. Truth is not: an understanding of some kind.

TRUTH IS:
1. Truth is: a wholeness that may be defined as the human being.

--Which part of 'the human being/truth' is then 'true': our minds, our bodies, our actions, our beliefs, our values, our fears, etc.?

2. Truth is: a living- not a "feeling" "understanding" "idea" etc.

--A living what?

3. Truth is: progressive-as is the human being.

--When something is described as 'progressive', it is seen as 'progressive' only in relation to something else; something earlier, or simpler, etc. Yet, you said earlier that truth is not related to anything else...and yet here you say it is progressive. These two statements are contradictory.

4. Truth is: in one aspect relative to our individual "situation".

--So, if truth is relative, what do we mean by the word/concept relative? Something is usually seen as relative only in relation to something that does not change. If 'truth' is 'relative', then what (if not truth) remains unchanging or unchanged, in order for you to be able to recognize 'truth' as being 'relative'?

5. Truth is: "past" the "supposed existance of self".

6. Truth is: explained by a "reason based on science".

--And yet you said that "Truth is not: 'achievable' by any religious, philosophical, logical, or scientific 'path'." This is a clear contradiction of your earlier statement, above.

8. Truth is : " a natural living".

--A natural, living what?

9. Truth is : "past the stage of love" - but is dependant on it.

--So, there was no truth, before there was love?

10. Truth is : a word used to describe "a living".

--Again, a living what? The word concept 'living' is an adjective; adjectives are meaningless unless they describe a noun. So, what noun does your use of 'living' describe?

11. Truth is : you and me -if only we didn't think of "ourselves" as "something we are not".

--I disagree. A is A. Or, as Popeye said, 'I yam what I yam.' If we are what we are, then even if we think of ourselves as something we are not, that--too--is part of what we are.

Keith Russell.

[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: Keith Russell ]</p>

dostf · 08-07-2002, 10:51 AM

Morgan:

Certainly don't "believe" in anything. It is contrary to reason.

Math is useful in that it trains our minds to be logical-but that is the extent of it. noone ever lived truth through a math equation.

Language is useful as it the way human communicate.-but is certainly limited in any number of ways.

"truth is what you make it"

- relatively speaking yes. However we are filled with many falsities we take as "truth" about any number of things most of all ourselves.

be seeing you...

08-06-2002, 01:11 PM	#1
dostf Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: toronto canada Posts: 498	Truth is/is not Truth is not: dependant on time or space ie. "found in the past" or "to be found in the future"- it is progressive. Truth is not: for sale in any way, shape, or form. Truth is not: expressable in words. Truth is not: contrary to reason. Truth is not: "outside of you somewhere".ie. separate from the human being. Truth is not: related to anything else. Truth is not: "achievable" by any religious, philosophical, logical, or scientific "path". Truth is not: dependant on any kind of "faith" whatsoever. Truth is not: related to any "moral code" or "ritual behaviour of any kind". Truth is not: an understanding of some kind. TRUTH IS: Truth is: a wholeness that may be defined as the human being. Truth is: a living- not a "feeling" "understanding" "idea" etc. Truth is: progressive-as is the human being. Truth is: in one aspect relative to our individual "situation" Truth is: "past" the "supposed existance of self" Truth is: explained by a "reason based on science" Truth is : " a natural living" Truth is : "past the stage of love" - but is dependant on it. Truth is : a word used to describe "a living". Truth is : you and me -if only we didn't think of "ourselves" as "something we are not" Any questions, comments, are welcomed. I will try to respond as soon as possible... Thanks....

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08-06-2002, 01:54 PM	#2
WJ Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 812	Neat post! Let me try the first set, my comments in brackets[]: Truth is not: dependant on time or space ie. "found in the past" or "to be found in the future"- it is progressive. [ Truth is time depended for our understanding of it thru conscious existence, which in turn, is completely dependend upon time] Truth is not: expressable in words. [In some cases, truth in fact, is an ineffable experience thru the phemonenon of living life. There will always be something that glimmers and twinkles but will not be caught] Truth is not: contrary to reason. [What is reason in the face of truth?] Truth is not: "outside of you somewhere".ie. separate from the human being. [Is mathmatics a discovery or invention?] Truth is not: related to anything else. [whew.] Truth is not: "achievable" by any religious, philosophical, logical, or scientific "path". [Truth may be found in the (understanding of) will to live.] Truth is not: dependant on any kind of "faith" whatsoever. [Wrong; try Kant's synthetic apriori] Truth is not: related to any "moral code" or "ritual behaviour of any kind". [Is it thru reason we seek to be moral creatures? You may find there is some argument for pragmatism] Truth is not: an understanding of some kind. [Truth may an understanding that we lack understanding. But what really is understanding? Do we all understand/perceive the meaning of truth the same way? And what does it all mean?] Maybe truth seeks understanding. But we must first define the meaning/purpose of understanding a truth.

08-06-2002, 03:15 PM	#3
snatchbalance Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CT Posts: 333	"What is truth? said the jesting Pilot, and would not stay for an answer." Francis Bacon

08-06-2002, 04:52 PM	#4
dostf Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: toronto canada Posts: 498	wj: Thanks for the reply...here's some thoughts about them.... [ Truth is time depended for our understanding of it thru conscious existence, which in turn, is completely dependend upon time] - truth is not an understanding, but a living. This is not time dependant. In some cases, truth in fact, is an ineffable experience thru the phemonenon of living life. There will always be something that glimmers and twinkles but will not be caught] - Do you mean by this that life experiences themselves offer us the truth in some cases? [What is reason in the face of truth?] - Reason is a valuable tool that enables us to dismiss the false in ourselves, our knowledge, and our understandings- but it is limited Is mathmatics a discovery or invention?] - it is one expression of humans in an attempt to explain truth- it is a "part" of the "whole" that is the human being. It will always be imcomplete because of this ( as is science, philosophy etc..) [Truth may be found in the (understanding of) will to live.] - one might say (will to live) is instinctual. Understanding our will to live will not lead anywhere in my opinion. The point here was no "path" will lead one to an "end" represented by "truth". [Wrong; try Kant's synthetic apriori] - my Kant is poor my apologies. The idea here is "faith" and "belief" are enemies to reason and living for oneself that something is true or not. [Is it thru reason we seek to be moral creatures? You may find there is some argument for pragmatism] - The idea here is morality and codes of behaviour are insufficient to "live truth". Morality and codes of behaviour are subject to human need and variable. Religions are a good example of this. Morals are a starting point, not a ending point. [Truth may an understanding that we lack understanding. But what really is understanding? Do we all understand/perceive the meaning of truth the same way? And what does it all mean?] - Again truth is not an understanding of some kind but a living. Be seeing you...

08-07-2002, 04:18 AM	#5
WJ Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 812	Snatch! Good one. I forgot this one from the book 'zen and the art of motorcycle maintanence': "Truth knocks at your door and you say, go away, I'm looking for the truth." BTW, I still like ...truth seeks understanding; understanding seeks truth, because it reeks of subjective/objective truths. Too, I hesitate to add Keats' 'beauty is truth...' because truth can be ugly to some. And that might be because some folks 'can't handle the truth'. EDIT: Oops, overlooked another one...: 'Truth is Subjectivity'- soren keirkegaard [ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: WJ ]</p>

08-07-2002, 08:45 AM	#6
Morgan Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: UK Posts: 89	I can't say I believe in truth. Not absolute truth; just different ways of looking at things, some more plausible then others. Its probably why I'm an agnostic and refused to accept any faith. I think that mathematics only limits our understanding. Yes, it has given us a great many things, but I believe it has denied an even greater amount, things that we will never see because of the mathematics that has been ingrained in us since childhood. For us, 2 + 2 may never equal 5. Language is also a culprit of this. What would our thoughts be if we had no words? We shall never know, because that is the way we will always think. "Truth is what you make it."

08-07-2002, 09:39 AM	#7
Adrian Selby Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Farnham, UK Posts: 859	how does this mish mash nonsense from some college student's poster collection constitute philosophy? Truth is you and me? what kind of arse is that? sorry that wasn't more constructive, i just don't have the time to ask what could be meaningfully said to be true if it is simply, among other things, you and me. If we're true, then we're not being false. I love your post by the way Adrian

08-07-2002, 10:34 AM	#8
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: Truth is existence is reality. Truth is. Existence exists. A is A. Keith Russell.

08-07-2002, 10:46 AM	#9
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	dostf said: TRUTH IS NOT 1. Truth is not: dependant on time or space ie. "found in the past" or "to be found in the future"- it is progressive. 2. Truth is not: for sale in any way, shape, or form. 3. Truth is not: expressable in words. --And yet this is exactly what you are trying to do: to express in these ten sentences your view of what 'truth' isn't. 4. Truth is not: contrary to reason. 5. Truth is not: "outside of you somewhere".ie. separate from the human being. --So, if truth is 'within' us, what word/concept should we use to refer to that which is outside of us? 6. Truth is not: related to anything else. --What else is there but truth? 7. Truth is not: "achievable" by any religious, philosophical, logical, or scientific "path". --Then, by what method did you arrive at these twenty-one statements? 8. Truth is not: dependant on any kind of "faith" whatsoever. 9. Truth is not: related to any "moral code" or "ritual behaviour of any kind". 10. Truth is not: an understanding of some kind. TRUTH IS: 1. Truth is: a wholeness that may be defined as the human being. --Which part of 'the human being/truth' is then 'true': our minds, our bodies, our actions, our beliefs, our values, our fears, etc.? 2. Truth is: a living- not a "feeling" "understanding" "idea" etc. --A living what? 3. Truth is: progressive-as is the human being. --When something is described as 'progressive', it is seen as 'progressive' only in relation to something else; something earlier, or simpler, etc. Yet, you said earlier that truth is not related to anything else...and yet here you say it is progressive. These two statements are contradictory. 4. Truth is: in one aspect relative to our individual "situation". --So, if truth is relative, what do we mean by the word/concept relative? Something is usually seen as relative only in relation to something that does not change. If 'truth' is 'relative', then what (if not truth) remains unchanging or unchanged, in order for you to be able to recognize 'truth' as being 'relative'? 5. Truth is: "past" the "supposed existance of self". 6. Truth is: explained by a "reason based on science". *--And yet you said that "Truth is not: 'achievable' by any religious, philosophical, logical, or scientific 'path'." This* is a clear contradiction of your earlier statement, above. 8. Truth is : " a natural living". --A natural, living what? 9. Truth is : "past the stage of love" - but is dependant on it. --So, there was no truth, before there was love? 10. Truth is : a word used to describe "a living". --Again, a living what? The word concept 'living' is an adjective; adjectives are meaningless unless they describe a noun. So, what noun does your use of 'living' describe? 11. Truth is : you and me -if only we didn't think of "ourselves" as "something we are not". --I disagree. A is A. Or, as Popeye said, 'I yam what I yam.' If we are what we are, then even if we think of ourselves as something we are not, that--too--is part of what we are.** Keith Russell. [ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: Keith Russell ]</p>

08-07-2002, 10:51 AM	#10
dostf Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: toronto canada Posts: 498	Morgan: Certainly don't "believe" in anything. It is contrary to reason. Math is useful in that it trains our minds to be logical-but that is the extent of it. noone ever lived truth through a math equation. Language is useful as it the way human communicate.-but is certainly limited in any number of ways. "truth is what you make it" - relatively speaking yes. However we are filled with many falsities we take as "truth" about any number of things most of all ourselves. be seeing you...

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