Calzaer

For the sake of argument, pretend I have one piece of undeniable evidence for every claim I make. Would you accept the claim "I have a cheetah cub" with this one piece of undeniable evidence, but then require more than one piece of undeniable evidence for "I can dance around in a circle making funny noises and it will rain"?

My thinking here is that the rules of evidence are identical for both mundane and "delusional" claims.

hinduwoman

well, I am deep into the Hindu orbit, without buying into the supernatural stuff. Do I qualify?

Illithid

Hope it's okay for me to jump in... not even sure what we're arguing about, if we even are arguing.

I am a skeptic. But I am not paranoid. A mundane claim which would not be surprising if true is not one I'm going to question much or bother to investigate unless there is some reason to do so. "I have a mother" is bloody obvious, so far as I know everything capable of making the statement has a mother.

"I have a cheetah cub". Easily demonstrated. Show me the cute little tyke. I think it's a little nuts to raise one, because after years of friendly treatment big cats remain hunting carnivores who can kill you as casually as I can beat my six-year old at chess, and far more quickly. But if nothing important was riding on the question, I'd probably accept your word for it provisionally, unless you said something that jarred with what I know about domesticating exotic animals.

"I ... rain dance". Big problem. The fact to be demonstrated is subtle, and is directly contradicted by a large body of knowledge I have regarding meteorology, which is self-consistent, supported by loads of evidence, and does not admit of effectual rain-dancing. I'd need repeated demonstrations, cross-checked statistically with the local weather patterns, and with due consideration for other explanations, such as your having a partner in deception who owns a cloud-seeder plane.

The biggest problem I have with my friends who are religious is that their evidence is all anecdotal and subjective. This or that wonderful experience happened, they had the other deeply moving feeling, etc. I, on the other hand, have simply never had any experience that struck me as defying, or even shying away from, rational explanation.

Of course, they don't push their views on me, nor I on them, or we wouldn't be friends for very long, would we?

Valmorian

First of all, what is "undeniable evidence"?

Secondly, the amount of evidence required for a claim that is contrary to all existing evidence thusfar is going to need to be greater.

I'm going to be suspicious of anyone who says they can teleport, even if they APPEAR to be able to do it through casual inspection. Maybe it's a trick?

Calzaer

I love cheetah cubs. They're so cute. I want one.

*ahem* Anyway.

Illithid: What I'm trying to say is that the amount and type of evidence required is exactly the same for mundane claims as for extrordinary claims. If I gave you one piece of objective evidence proving I had a cheetah cub (awwwww), say, a notarized reciept of purchase, you'd most likely accept that, right?

Now, if I gave you one piece of objective evidence proving I could rain dance (I don't know what would constitute objective evidence... say, James Randi saw me do it and gave me a million dollar check), would you accept that? Or would you require MORE evidence (quantity) than you would for the cheetah cub claim?

I suppose, qualitatively, the million dollars is more "extrordinary" than the notarized reciept, but it wouldn't have any more real value as "objective evidence".

I'm just being anal retentive about the phrase "extrordinary claims require extrordinary evidence".

Valmorian

That's the problem. I WOULD require more evidence.

Suppose I told you "I can juggle" and then juggled three balls in front of you. Would you accept that as pretty good proof?

Now suppose I told you, "I can make it rain just by concentrating", and then it rained. I don't know about you, but I'd require more than ONE demonstration to determine the validity of this claim, considering how people can not normally do such a thing.

Illithid

Exactly. Evidence for an extraordinary claim must supercede previous evidence that makes the claim unlikely. I don't have any evidence that people can't have cheetah cubs.

As it happens, I had an employee once, a Wiccan, and quite a dim-witted lass (not highly correlated phenomena, IMO), who claimed to be able to to make it rain by concentrating. Sometimes it took longer than other times, of course. She also said she could make traffic lights turn green, with the same qualifier.

No, no, she was quite serious. Scary, that.

Bumble Bee Tuna

Some people are stupid. This should explain some things.