Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DireStraits · 07-12-2002, 10:11 PM

There would be no such thing as free will, since that's where free will started from.

The knowledge gained from that tree. I mean.

Oh, wait a minute! You actually had to EAT of the fruit of that tree. THAT gave you moral knowledge.

Before that you were created as a moral robot with no understatanding of what not to do, right?

Legendary U.2.K. · 07-12-2002, 10:41 PM

If Adam & Eve Have not Sin, We Would'nt be living this Way <-------HEED THAT Statement

Marduk · 07-13-2002, 05:58 AM

Sit tight, I will explain this once and only once!
The “Tree of Life” refers to our DNA molecule, The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil” is the same tree minus one branch.
In the old Mesopotamian myths the gods create homosapiens 1.0, they watch the humans having sex but notice the females aren’t getting pregnant. The god of wisdom, the snake god Enki, investigates. (the symbol of DNA, two snakes wrapped around a branch)
“I have looked into the essence of Man, his tree of life has 24 branches” They had 24 pair of chromosomes not 22 plus the odd 23rd sex chromosome, they could not breed. Homosapien 2.0 had the right mix and started breeding. This was the beginning of the formation of human consciousness, they began to associate sex with babies, the consequences of their actions, unlike the other animals. Hence the knowledge of ‘good’ and ‘evil’.
The gods in these stories created humans by taking the primitive animal like human and giving him some of their ‘essence’
The gods themselves were the products of evolution as well but over a longer period of time. “The gods, from creature to creature over eons and eons, were formed”
Unfortunately the Bible edits out too much of the whole story.

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]</p>

babelfish · 07-13-2002, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Legendary U.2.K.:
<strong>If Adam & Eve Have not Sin, We Would'nt be living this Way <-------HEED THAT Statement</strong>

So how would we be living? What do you envision this world being like if they had not sinned?

Rev. Joshua · 07-13-2002, 07:05 AM

A friend of mine preached a sermon on Genesis 1 & 2 that was essentially a long statement of gratitude to Eve.

Joshua

ishalon · 07-13-2002, 11:28 AM

Why give Eve thanks when God knew she was going to do it and let her do it? Its all in the Plan.

DireStraits · 07-13-2002, 01:57 PM

So how would we be living? What do you envision this world being like if they had not sinned?

We'd be moral automata with no free will and no consciences either, since we would have no knowledge of good and evil. Since we'd have no concept of good and evil, there would be no laws. Not only would anyone be free to do whatever they wanted to anyone - cheat, steal, lie, rape, murder - but no-one would see anything wrong in it and no-one would go punished. That's what our world would be like if Eve had stuck to God's commandment not to eat of the tree.

According to Genesis I, God did not create Man with knoledge of good and evil, Man had to get it from the tree. Man's first disobedience to God allowed us to have laws and a concience.

And Man as a whole is far better off than he would have been if he had not disobeyed God.

babelfish · 07-13-2002, 02:05 PM

I was sort of hoping for an answer from U.2.K., or any other wistful Christian who believes the world would be death-free and altogether wonderful if only the first two humans hadn't sunk their teeth into that forbidden piece of fruit.

Starboy · 07-13-2002, 02:18 PM

Did A&E have any children while in Eden? Also could they have children? Was one of the punishements of the original sin making A&E furtile? Thus turning them into parents of teenagers (eventually).

Starboy

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

DireStraits · 07-13-2002, 03:50 PM

Did A&E have any children while in Eden?

DS: Genesis I is unclear. But the post-perfect world clearly introduced the evil of incest. Of course, the perfect world also would have included incest, unless one wants to claim that God had a notion of introducing other humans. But that ain’t in Genesis either, so I suppose it’s anybody’s guess.

Also could they have children? Was one of the punishements of the original sin making A&E furtile?

DS: Difficult to say. It could be that in the perfect world – since there was no free will – that there might have been no boredom either, so A&E could have existed in perfect harmony and happiness for eternity. Makes you wonder why it was that God bothered to create them, though. Maybe he erased their memories every so often so that although they were bored, they couldn’t remember that they were bored.

Consideration of what is supposed to happen in heaven may give some insights in this respect.

Thus turning them into parents of teenagers (eventually).

DS: Well, since an obsolete meaning of the word “teen” is “hurt” I think you may be onto something…

07-12-2002, 10:11 PM	#1
DireStraits Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 81	If Eve had not sinned... There would be no such thing as free will, since that's where free will started from. The knowledge gained from that tree. I mean. Oh, wait a minute! You actually had to EAT of the fruit of that tree. THAT gave you moral knowledge. Before that you were created as a moral robot with no understatanding of what not to do, right?

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07-12-2002, 10:41 PM	#2
Legendary U.2.K. Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: BurBank Ca Posts: 10	If Adam & Eve Have not Sin, We Would'nt be living this Way <-------HEED THAT Statement

07-13-2002, 05:58 AM	#3
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	Sit tight, I will explain this once and only once! The “Tree of Life” refers to our DNA molecule, The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil” is the same tree minus one branch. In the old Mesopotamian myths the gods create homosapiens 1.0, they watch the humans having sex but notice the females aren’t getting pregnant. The god of wisdom, the snake god Enki, investigates. (the symbol of DNA, two snakes wrapped around a branch) “I have looked into the essence of Man, his tree of life has 24 branches” They had 24 pair of chromosomes not 22 plus the odd 23rd sex chromosome, they could not breed. Homosapien 2.0 had the right mix and started breeding. This was the beginning of the formation of human consciousness, they began to associate sex with babies, the consequences of their actions, unlike the other animals. Hence the knowledge of ‘good’ and ‘evil’. The gods in these stories created humans by taking the primitive animal like human and giving him some of their ‘essence’ The gods themselves were the products of evolution as well but over a longer period of time. “The gods, from creature to creature over eons and eons, were formed” Unfortunately the Bible edits out too much of the whole story. [ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]</p>

07-13-2002, 07:05 AM	#5
Rev. Joshua Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Atlanta Posts: 63	A friend of mine preached a sermon on Genesis 1 & 2 that was essentially a long statement of gratitude to Eve. Joshua

07-13-2002, 11:28 AM	#6
ishalon Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: From: Posts: 203	Why give Eve thanks when God knew she was going to do it and let her do it? Its all in the Plan.

07-13-2002, 01:57 PM	#7
DireStraits Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 81	So how would we be living? What do you envision this world being like if they had not sinned? We'd be moral automata with no free will and no consciences either, since we would have no knowledge of good and evil. Since we'd have no concept of good and evil, there would be no laws. Not only would anyone be free to do whatever they wanted to anyone - cheat, steal, lie, rape, murder - but no-one would see anything wrong in it and no-one would go punished. That's what our world would be like if Eve had stuck to God's commandment not to eat of the tree. According to Genesis I, God did not create Man with knoledge of good and evil, Man had to get it from the tree. Man's first disobedience to God allowed us to have laws and a concience. And Man as a whole is far better off than he would have been if he had not disobeyed God.

07-13-2002, 02:05 PM	#8
babelfish Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Augusta, Maine, USA Posts: 2,046	I was sort of hoping for an answer from U.2.K., or any other wistful Christian who believes the world would be death-free and altogether wonderful if only the first two humans hadn't sunk their teeth into that forbidden piece of fruit.

07-13-2002, 02:18 PM	#9
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Did A&E have any children while in Eden? Also could they have children? Was one of the punishements of the original sin making A&E furtile? Thus turning them into parents of teenagers (eventually). Starboy [ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

07-13-2002, 03:50 PM	#10
DireStraits Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 81	Did A&E have any children while in Eden? DS: Genesis I is unclear. But the post-perfect world clearly introduced the evil of incest. Of course, the perfect world also would have included incest, unless one wants to claim that God had a notion of introducing other humans. But that ain’t in Genesis either, so I suppose it’s anybody’s guess. Also could they have children? Was one of the punishements of the original sin making A&E furtile? DS: Difficult to say. It could be that in the perfect world – since there was no free will – that there might have been no boredom either, so A&E could have existed in perfect harmony and happiness for eternity. Makes you wonder why it was that God bothered to create them, though. Maybe he erased their memories every so often so that although they were bored, they couldn’t remember that they were bored. Consideration of what is supposed to happen in heaven may give some insights in this respect. Thus turning them into parents of teenagers (eventually). DS: Well, since an obsolete meaning of the word “teen” is “hurt” I think you may be onto something…

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