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Reload this Page Religious probabilty - Do you like your chances?
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Old 12-16-2002, 09:32 PM   #11
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Originally posted by Amie:
<strong>Hi Soul Invictus

I think it may be hard for some to find any type of continuity between this statement:

If God exists, he/she is fair (this is a highly debated issue, so work with me on this one)

and this one:

IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE AND GOD EXISTS- you go to hell

This is by far my greatest obstacle as a believer. I just can't seem to see what is "fair" about God sending "his children" to burn in a pit of fire for all eternity for simply making mistakes using the free will that he gave us...

I wish I had all the answers...

[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Amie ]</strong>

Amie,

I definitely recognize the problem of saying God is fair. I'm just conceding the point, for sake of the argument,so my brother can make a point. I, for one would say that under the pretext given in religion, that God is not fair. Don't get me wrong. I'm just conceding a few points so he could make his case.

[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Soul Invictus ]</p>
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Old 12-16-2002, 09:35 PM   #12
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Originally posted by Elaborate:
<strong>But does the existence of a god necessarily imly the existence of an afterlife? Or, stipulating an afterlife, does the existance of a god iomply a heaven and hell? The problem is, your brother is thinking in a "Christian" (for want of a better word) mode, in that he assumes, that if God exists, everything else about Christianity is true. But one does not necessarily follow the other; indeed, assuming the existance of a god would only logically lead to a deist position.</strong>
The first point you made I actually never thought about, even in giving him the first two points.
I like your last sentence best. That's one to ponder.
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Old 12-16-2002, 09:40 PM   #13
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Originally posted by Eudaimonist:
<strong>

If God existed and was "fair", God would not require that people become spineless pragmatists and give up their intellectual integrity to play belief crap-shoots. This whole exercise is invalid, or at least undesirable, on that alone.</strong>
I'm hoping that was more of a statement on general rather than directed at my brother. You have to realize that the whole exercise was posed by a bible believing kid, which may not be properly structured, it was at least a nice attempt to pose questions to atheists, don't you think? He's not as knowledgable on logic structure, or on history of religion, so I wasn't expecting anything profound. I posted his views to gain some insight. I don't need convincing that God is unfair/fair. I would argue that the Christian God is not. I like the constructive criticism, I just want to be sure that's what it is.Maybe I didn't stress enough in the beginning of the thread that I was conceding a few points and arguing on his terms for a change...

[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Soul Invictus ]</p>
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Old 12-16-2002, 09:47 PM   #14
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you are a good sibling Soul Invictus...

just the fact that you are even willing to listen to his arguments and let him make his case says alot about you as a person
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Old 12-16-2002, 09:51 PM   #15
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Ah...Pascal's Wager is used everywhere in churches, and I heard such mentions a lot in many Christian groups. The trouble came when our philosophy TA actually posed it in class--it got ripped to shreds seconds later.

"Heaven for the climate, hell for the company." ~Mark Twain

(edit to add quote... given that nearly all my favorite artists are not Christian)

[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]</p>
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Old 12-17-2002, 04:44 AM   #16
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Soul Invictus:

Fire this one back at your brother:

1) If God is benevolent, he'll reward you for living a good life even if you didn't believe. So, it doesn't matter what you believe.
2) If God is not benevolent, he may punish you for the slightest infraction, even if you do believe. Or he may punish you just for giggles.
3) If God doesn't care, he won't reward or punish you, or might do so at random.
4) If there is no God, it doesn't matter what you believe.

So, the believer only protects himself IF #2 is true AND he does everything exactly right AND God doesn't plan to just punish him regardless. In all other situations, the believer and the unbeliever are on equal footing - except the unbeliever gets more freedom to his life.

Jamie
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Old 12-17-2002, 05:45 AM   #17
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Originally posted by Jamie_L:
<strong>Soul Invictus:

Fire this one back at your brother:

1) If God is benevolent, he'll reward you for living a good life even if you didn't believe. So, it doesn't matter what you believe.
2) If God is not benevolent, he may punish you for the slightest infraction, even if you do believe. Or he may punish you just for giggles.
3) If God doesn't care, he won't reward or punish you, or might do so at random.
4) If there is no God, it doesn't matter what you believe.

So, the believer only protects himself IF #2 is true AND he does everything exactly right AND God doesn't plan to just punish him regardless. In all other situations, the believer and the unbeliever are on equal footing - except the unbeliever gets more freedom to his life.

Jamie</strong>
.

Wow. That's impressive. I'll run that by him
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Old 12-17-2002, 05:47 AM   #18
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Originally posted by philechat:
<strong>Ah...Pascal's Wager is used everywhere in churches, and I heard such mentions a lot in many Christian groups. The trouble came when our philosophy TA actually posed it in class--it got ripped to shreds seconds later.

"Heaven for the climate, hell for the company." ~Mark Twain

(edit to add quote... given that nearly all my favorite artists are not Christian)

[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]</strong>
You wouldn't happen to remember how he/she did it would you? I would find that very delightful to read!
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Old 12-17-2002, 05:52 AM   #19
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Originally posted by Soul Invictus:
<strong>I'm hoping that was more of a statement on general rather than directed at my brother.</strong>
What I am saying is simply this: whether the Pascal Wagerists realize it or not, they are asking people (atheists) to give up their intellectual integrity.
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Old 12-17-2002, 06:01 AM   #20
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Originally posted by Eudaimonist:
<strong>

What I am saying is simply this: whether the Pascal Wagerists realize it or not, they are asking people (atheists) to give up their intellectual integrity.</strong>
Okay, I understand now...I just needed to be clear.I concur with you. You mind checking out a thread I have in E/C?
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