excreationist

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

So here in the OT, God is commanding that men who have sex with other men be put to death...

Some questions for Christians to answer:

1) If an Israelite in OT times was to follow this commandment and kill a man who had sex with another man, would that be perfectly moral?

2) If a community of Israelites refused to kill a man who had sex with another man, would the community be sinning? (disobeying God)

3) Does it say anywhere in the Bible that having gay sex is no longer immoral?

4) If there was a country in modern or medieval times that killed men who had sex with other men, would that be moral?

5) Since our governments punish other crimes mentioned in the OT, such as theft and murder, would it be fair for the government to also punish men who have gay sex?

6) If there was a referendum for you to choose whether you think the government should kill gay men or not, would you vote "yes" or "no"?

7) If homosexuality is immoral (in the OT it had the same punishment as murder and I think the punishment for theft was just repaying back 4 times what you stole), then what do you think a fair punishment would be?
[I think in the NT it says it is evil.
I mean shouldn't the justice system do something about it? At the moment they punish people who have sex with underage teens, etc, which is kind of similar.
If there shouldn't be any punishment for it, why is this offence different to other offences in the OT, which we often have punishments for?]

(Added another question)

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]</p>

pug846

I'm not Christian, but I say it's definetely no. If all gay men were killed, I'd have no idea what clothes to buy.

Bubba

Hell yes it's moral to kill gay men!

Under these circumstances...I believe that a gay man has just as much right to fight for his country and die for it as a strait man. Since war will probably never be done away with, and since gay men exist in every country then if one was to be killed in an honerable act of battle the one killing would be justified in killing a gay man.

I doubt very many people in combat would check the sexual orientation of the people that they are fighting against, however.

In all other cases it's highly immoral.

Bubba <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

raistlinjones

I'm not a Christian either, but I'll try to answer the questions:

As a Christian, my morality is defined thusly: what God tells me to do, is Good. What God tells me to refrain from doing, is Evil.

so, to answer

1) If an Israelite in OT times was to follow this commandment and kill a man who had sex with another man, would that be perfectly moral?

Absolutely. God commands the death. Therefore to cause the death is Good. Really, according to the passage, the men engaging in sexual activity with each other are responsible for their own deaths. The Isrealite is merely enforcing the rule.

A good equivalent is a murdereder getting the death penalty. According to some views, the murderer has forfeited his right to life. The executioner is just enforcing the rule that says that the life must now be taken.

2) If a community of Israelites refused to kill a man who had sex with another man, would the community be sinning? (disobeying God)

Yes. To disobey God is to sin. This is quite clear.

3) Does it say anywhere in the Bible that having gay sex is no longer immoral?

The Bible is not the Constitution; it does not change at the whimsy of those currently using it. As such, no, the law is still in effect - having gay sex is still immoral.

4) If there was a country in modern or medieval times that killed men who had sex with other men, would that be moral?

Yes. The lives of men who have sex with other men are forfeit.

5) Since our governments punish other crimes mentioned in the OT, such as theft and murder, would it be fair for the government to also punish men who have gay sex?

Although you are correct that governments punish theft and murder...I gotta go. I'll post more later.

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: raistlinjones ]</p>

dk

Gay culture poses a vicious deadly threat to sodomites & intimates, while the OT and NT Law offer hope. I wonder how many people have received a death sentence in gay bath houses and other institutions of gay love. By all counts the champions of modern gay culture have a gift that keeps on giving, and teenage protégés are the latest in a long list of unwitting recipients.
The two Greatest Commandment are...

• First: You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
• Second: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments

I have to ask, “If gays care about one another, then why haven’t they shut down the bath houses and other notorious venues?

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: dk ]
Restored, and last edit

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: dk ]</p>

Autonemesis

dk, you deleted this passage:

I was about to raise the question of where does the Bible command the believer to love oneself? If the believer is not to love himself, then the 2nd commandment there is rather, uhh, pointless. Indeed, the 1st commandment seems to leave no room for the 2nd at all, for if one is loving one's neighbor in the slightest degree, then one is no longer loving god "with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind."

Isn't that so?

dk

Really, Christians believe love like good are open ended propositions. So it is even good to love one's enemies.

raistlinjones

To continue my earlier post:

5) Since our governments punish other crimes mentioned in the OT, such as theft and murder, would it be fair for the government to also punish men who have gay sex?

You are correct in saying that governments punish crimes like theft and murder, but I think you're confusing similarity with cause. That is, the reason that governments outlaws theft and murder is because society would fall apart without these principle's enforced. It could be argued that this is a "Christian Nation", and that therefore the laws are based on Christian OT laws, but I don't buy it. And even if they are, I don't think that they should be.

Here's why: Christian laws, and laws of any religion, are moral laws. Moral laws are enforced by God, and apply to the conduct of individuals. Governments have other laws that are important to them; laws for government should be related to keeping order. They have nothing to do with what is right or wrong, only what benefits society and what doesn't benefit society.

6) If there was a referendum for you to choose whether you think the government should kill gay men or not, would you vote "yes" or "no"?

This would depend on whether society would benefit. Obviously, it would make God happy for them to be dead, but, as I already expressed, I don't think it's the role of the government to do God's will. A Christian government, yes, but not a secular one.

7) If homosexuality is immoral (in the OT it had the same punishment as murder and I think the punishment for theft was just repaying back 4 times what you stole), then what do you think a fair punishment would be?
[I think in the NT it says it is evil.
I mean shouldn't the justice system do something about it? At the moment they punish people who have sex with underage teens, etc, which is kind of similar.
If there shouldn't be any punishment for it, why is this offence different to other offences in the OT, which we often have punishments for?]

Again, the reason we punish people for having sex with teenagers has nothing to do with the Old Testament. It has everything to do with promoting public order, public well-being, and so on.

As far as punishment, again, people who commit homosexual acts (there is no such thing as a homosexual, there are only people that do a certain action, like male-male sex) deserve to be killed. But I don't think the government should be in the business of enforcing that.

Please, before anyone thinks "Raistinjones is a Christian, he sucks big time!" remember that I'm just trying to answer it as (I think) a reasonable Christian would. I don't really think this way.

Mark_Chid

2 points

1. If He wants them dead, let him kill them.
***********************************

2. Edited by The Other Michael, MF&P Moderator, to delete personal attack.

Please remember to maintain a reasonably civil tone when addressing other participants in the discussion.

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: The Other Michael ]</p>

pug846

dk, did you stop to think about what you were writing, or did you just spew out the standard lines your church gave you?

First off, you completely skirted the issue in the opening post. Should homosexuals be put to death? Yes or no?

Yes, those fags and their gay orgies. What shall we do with them? Here’s a thought for you and you might want to sit down for this: Not all gay people go to bathhouses. It might come as a shock to you, but lots of gay men stay in loving, committed long-term relationship. Unfortunately they can’t get the official governmental approval (and the accompanying legal benefits), but they stay monogamous.

There can be negative consequences if you practice unprotected sex. It doesn’t matter if you are gay, straight or bi-sexual. Your complaint doesn’t reside with the sexual orientation, but with the way some homosexuals choose to act on their sexual feelings. Surprise, surprise, but that same problem can be found in straight populations.

If straights care about each other, why do they continue to allow each other to drink, smoke and do some of the more dangerous drugs? Are you serious here? Would you like to follow me with where this reasoning leads us?

If God is so concerned about love, why would God care if two men want to stay in a loving, caring, committed relationship? If a vagina was involved, it suddenly becomes okay? Is God that much of a fucking idiot?

Please do me a favor and repeat this simple phrase over and over again before you feel the urge to spew more biblical crap in this thread:

I promise to try and separate the potential irresponsible acts that homosexuals can engage in and homosexuality itself. I understand that straight people often do irresponsible things because of their sexuality, but that doesn’t mean that heterosexuality is wrong.

This is a very sensitive topic for me, so watch what you say because I will jump down your throat if you step across that line and start making the typical, bigoted statements that I hear from Christians regarding homosexuality.