The Other Michael

Hi Panta Pei,

With your wife it may not be a religion thing as much as her seeing it as an "attack" against her family (though you should be her primary family now).

Or, it could be that she's got some other issue that's been gnawing at her and this was the last straw/convenient excuse. Divorce seems a pretty drastic response to me for something like this.

Luckily for me, a couple of years ago I made a strongly anti-religious comment to my sweetheart's mother when leaving after Easter dinner at her house (and a bit more champagne than I probably needed), and all I got was a big lecture on politeness and a couple of days of aggro.

But in that case I was actually being rude to someone in their house and deserved it (I can't remember what it was that set me off - there must of been some religious thing that happened that day, probably dealing with RC indoctrination of small children).

You were certainly mocking the relatives which might not have been the best thing to do if your wife is still close to them. But I can't say I would have been able to resist the temptation if I'd been in the same circumstances.

good luck,
Michael

Panta Pei

Yeah, I agree, it seemed a bit flip when I said it, however after further review it really is just as equal a view, IMHO.

By this I mean, in their 'moment' they propose there is a god and in mine I propose there is not.

I silently respected their assertion at their place for years, while they blew all nine gaskets when I proposed mine <just once> in my own home.

Godless Dave

That's because their assertion doesn't threaten you. You're too confident in your worldview to get rattled when someone asserts their own beliefs. They're so touchy that even the thought that not everyone believes the same as them is threatening.

Was the "D" word really divorce? I thought she was just calling you a dick!

brighid

Panta Pei,

Oh, I have such an overwhelming desire at times to say such things to my family but I generally refrain. My mother and her husband have this horrible practice of wanting to do the prayer circle out at public restaurants. We went out to brunch when they came in for my wedding and did the whole join hands and prayed baloney. At the time I was just too mentally exhausted from everything to voice my opinion or to do anything other then sit there and endure this hypocritical ritual.

But, in October my mother and her husband will be coming to visit and it’s going to be really, really difficult for me to sit through it this time! I have considered a few options: either sit there, without holding hands and politely say that because I am not a Christian I do not wish to participate in Christian prayer. Or excuse myself from the table during this ritual – first discussing it with my husband and talking my family for a walk while they pray. Or asking to say the prayer and quoting the verse where Jesus says something to the affect of one should not be hypocritical and pray in public, but in private and yadda, yadda, yadda! I REALLY want to do the later, but I also realize that this will make rest of the meal and the stay very unpleasant. I must also think about my son and how I should handle things in front of him and a huge religious confrontation with my mother and her husband is probably NOT the best example to set. But – oh, how that would just be so apt and get right to the heart of the matter!

I love my mother as the human being who gave me life and brought me into this world (with the help of my fathers insemination) BUT oh how she makes me angry at her bigotry, hypocrisy and narrow, fundamentalist view of the world. My father is quasi-religious and would still classify himself as a Catholic but his life doesn’t revolve around what the Pope or the Bible tells him to do and although he was one hell of an abusive bastard growing up I have a better relationship with him because he doesn’t try and push crap on me. He knows better and simply goes – Oh well, and accepts my friends and me! If there are any “miracles” in the world this is one – my father and I having a good relationship!

Your wife is pissed because she is probably catching a lot of flack from her family and the comment was a bit quip – BUT it was so good. I laughed out loud after reading it and I thought to myself – damn it, why didn’t I think of that?

Brighid

[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]</p>

beachbum

Panta Pei

Dear kindred spirit.

Mu wife and companion for the past 14 years is a non-practising weak theist and I am known to our friends as an 'evangelical atheist'. Susan and I rarely argue and have never had a serious fight. However, she has little understanding of my position. Someone else said it first and I agree - I think she feels threatened, if not for herself then for her family - a whole bunch of theists.

We have argued over religion primarily as to how wrong I am and never the other person or group. She has even corrected me for blasting Falwell or those other idiots on tv. No D word but she can make things unpleasant for awhile.

Take care and I sure hope things work out for your and your wife. D is heavy shit.

rebelnerd

Panta Pei,


This may or may not be appropriate. My take is that you've been playing poker and they bet real heavy and you've just taken the pot. They're pissed (no shit.) The question is: Do you stay in the game and maybe let them win some of the pot back or do you scoop up the pot and go?

As a man who has been married for 16 years, all I can say is blood is thicker. She'll probably get over it given enough time, but what will you have to pay?

I think your comment was hillarious! It sounds indeed like a rare moment.


Filo

[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: Filo Quiggens ]</p>

Rev. Joshua

Family means being in it for the long haul, so y'all will find a way to work through this.

Admittedly, it might have eased your family into this process to have said something like, "Actually, in our home we don't do that." This could have made for a nice segue into "I'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable, but think how I've felt being marinated in your cult rituals every time I try to visit in your homes."

Since you took a rather - ahem - dramatic approach to step one, maybe you need to be a little contrite about how you do step two. (Those of you who've read my bio at my website know that I teach Interviews and Interrogation at our state police academy, so here's a little shop talk...}

Think of the conversations the same way you would an interrogation. How do they need to hear you say the truth in such a way that they will sympathize with you rather than reflexively ignore and/or attack you?

However you approach it, as long as your marriage is stronger than your wife's desire to have it easy with her parents, the in-laws are going to have to find some way to reconcile all this.

Joshua

[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: Rev. Joshua ]</p>

Arrowman

Panta Pei,

I think your "prayer" was a great shot but perhaps at an inappropriate target; imho it would have been better to take the more moderate "we don't do that here" approach but what's done is done.

beachbum's words may be very relevant here:
"Mu wife and companion for the past 14 years is a non-practising weak theist and I am known to our friends as an 'evangelical atheist'. Susan and I rarely argue and have never had a serious fight. However, she has little understanding of my position."

Without knowing your situation, I would say this is very common - weak theists or people who just don't bother thinking about that sort of thing don't see what is so all-fired important about this issue to justify "rudeness" and "disrespect" - which, like it or not, is how this sort of atheist act appears to them. Christianity is so ingained into our society that even non-practising Christians get a little shiver up their spine when someone even hints at atheism or refuses to join in a prayer etc.

Your wife is entitled to be pissed because you upset her relatives. I don't think she's entitled to be pissed for long, and certainly not to use the "D" word, especially if you take Joshua's advice about ""I'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable, but..."

I disagree with those who say the wife and family are upset because they feel "threatened". I think that is a self-serving assessment. People are entitled to be upset or offended when their religious rituals aren't respected (in their eyes), without being accused of feeling "threatened". How do you feel when a you express offence at something to a Christian, and they turn around and say "ha! you're feeling threatened!".

The Other Michael

Hi Arrowman,

I think you'll find that some people on this board DO feel threatened by Christians, and with good cause.

I find some Christians quite threatening in their drive to legally enforce their beliefs on people who don't share them.

cheers,
Michael

Viti

Wow...okay. Good job scombrid...excellent!

Panta...it was bound to come up sometime somehow. I am worried that wifey threw out the "D" word like that (forbidden in my home during a fight no matter how pissed we are). IS she willing to talk civilly at all? The biggest decision I made hubby make was who was his real family. I asked flat out...either I am your first priority and we are our own family or you are still the baby in your other family...I have no problem with others being sattelites, but we gotta be the core. Try the same talk with wifey, see her reaction...is she mad that the hypocritical "peace" was shattered, or that you were rude, or that you are an atheist or what?