Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Heathen Dawn · 11-07-2002, 08:59 AM

All right, let's suppose, as we materialists must, that the mind dies with the body. Still, what of all the accounts of people having NDEs? I've been reading Raymond Moody's "Life After Life", where he outlines a fairly consistent pattern of reports from NDEers. Does it have no meaning at all? Can it really be dismissed with a wave of the hand and "oh, it's just the dying brain making special effects"? Why does the NDE induce such a consistent, coherent imagery in those who experience it?

-- Heathen Dawn, trying to come to grips with the finality of death.

Bookman · 11-07-2002, 09:18 AM

Perhaps the Moody book includes a "fairly consistent pattern of reports" because Moody selects reports that fit the pattern and discards the others.

There's <a href="http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html" target="_blank">an article on NDE </a> from <a href="http://www.skepdic.com/" target="_blank">The Skeptics Dictionary</a> which includes some additional links at the bottom. Read widely.

Bookman

Jamie_L · 11-07-2002, 10:53 AM

For starters, we don't know when the NDE is formed in the brain. Those who posit the supernatural explain that it occurs during a period of "death". However, nearly all the NDE reports have no data to verify that. They may occur before the period of "death". They may also occur after. Or, it may be a combination of both - events occuring before and the brain trying to make sense of them after.

Now, why similarities from one to the other?

Well, we're all human beings. We all have very similar brains. Why is it not surprising that as we die, our brains undergo similar processes?

Furthermore, the standard NDE has gotten a fair amount of media exposure. People have an expectation of what an NDE is supposed to involve. After being near death, people are likely to fill in the blanks of the experience with what they have come to expect.

It's similar to the skeptical response to "why are alien abduction stories so similar to one another?"

Jamie

tronvillain · 11-07-2002, 11:17 AM

Those "consistent coherent effects" are consistent with being the products of a "dying" brain. That Skeptic's Dictionary link quotes Blackmore:

Quote:

If you started with very little neural noise and it gradually increased, the effect would be of a light at the centre getting larger and larger and hence closer and closer....the tunnel would appear to move as the noise levels increased and the central light got larger and larger....If the whole cortex became so noisy that all the cells were firing fast, the whole area would appear light (Blackmore 1993, 85).

The evidence simply does not appear to support a supernatural explanation over an explanation in terms of brain activity.

JerryM · 11-07-2002, 11:19 AM

I would agree that whatever imagery is reported during NDEs results from altered brain function, which though not identical, is fairly similar in all people. This really shouldn't be surprising. Most schizophrenics hear voices. Alcohol withdrawal is frequently associated with visual hallucinations, especially animal images (pink elephants, etc.) Our brains just have a similar physiology. I think a good question is why many people don't report such phenomena. I work in the health care field. I've probably seen 3 or 4 patients who've been resuscitated from cardiac arrest without signifcant brain damage. I've yet to hear anyone tell me about a NDE.

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: JerryM ]</p>

ps418 · 11-07-2002, 12:56 PM

I've read somewhere that 2/3 of people in near-death situations do not experience NDEs at all, and that children who have NDEs report often report seeing relatives that are still alive.

Ah. I found it. It is Keith Augustine's article <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/immortality.html#scicase" target="_blank">The case against immortality.</a> On NDEs, Augustine writes:

Quote:

Some findings of NDE research are more consistent with physiological and psychological models. None of the patients who report NDEs are brain dead because brain death is irreversible (Beyerstein 46).

First, NDEs only occur in one-third of all cases where there is a near-death crisis (Ring 194). Second, the details of NDEs depend on the individual's personal and cultural background (Ring 195).

Third, physiological and psychological factors affect the content of the NDE. Noises, tunnels, bright lights, and other beings are more common in physiological conditions directly affecting the brain state, such as cardiac arrest and anesthesia, whereas euphoria, mystical feelings, life review, and positive transformation can occur when people simply believe they are going to die (Blackmore, "Dying" 44-45).

Fourth, the core features of NDEs are found in drug-induced and naturally occurring hallucinations (Siegel 174). The OBE can be induced by the anesthetic ketamine (Blackmore, "Dying" 170). A tunnel experience is a common form of psychedelic hallucination (Siegel 175-6). All NDE stages have occurred in sequence under the influence of hashish (Blackmore, "Dying" 42-3).

Fifth, a build-up of carbon dioxide in the brain will induce NDEs (Blackmore, "Dying" 53-4).

Sixth, the panoramic life review closely resembles a form of temporal lobe epilepsy (206). There are even cases where epileptics have had OBEs or seen apparitions of dead friends and relatives during their seizures (206).

Seventh, computer simulations of random neural firing based on eye-brain mapping of the visual cortex have produced the tunnel and light characteristic of NDEs (84).

Eighth, the fact that naloxone--an opiate antagonist that inhibits the effects of endorphins on the brain--terminates near-death experiences provides some confirmation for the endorphin theory of NDEs. . .

Finally, NDEs can be induced by direct electrical stimulation of brain areas surrounding the Sylvian fissure in the right temporal lobe (Morse 104).

Other findings are flatly inconsistent with survival. The tunnels described in NDEs vary considerably in form. If NDEs reflected an external reality, one would expect consistency in the form of tunnel experiences reported (Blackmore, "Dying" 77). Furthermore, NDE cases have been reported where the patient has identified the "beings of light" as the medical staff making resuscitation attempts (227). Finally, the fact that "children are more likely to see living friends than those who have died" in NDEs strongly suggests that NDEs are not experiences of an external afterlife reality (Blackmore, "Near-Death" 36).

For what its worth, when I was 18-20 I had several experiences on psychedelic drugs that were basically identical to classic description of NDEs, including tunnels, the sense of moving through the tunnels, lights, and an overwhelming sense that "all was well." The only significant difference is that I did not 'see' any people or spirits.

Ms. Siv · 11-07-2002, 07:29 PM

Good post, ps418 .

There is more and more evidence to suggest that NDEs are just characterisations of how the brain responds to stressful situations. In fact many of the traits of NDEs and OBEs (Out of Body experiences) have been simulated in the laboratory.
Susan Blackmore (an academic psychologist) is one of those who actually had an NDE herself and was, for a while, convinced that it was something supernatural. Then she did a lot of research on these and realised that this was not so at all.

- Sivakami.

11-07-2002, 07:42 PM

The only difference between a person who had NDE/OBE and LIVED to tell about it and one who had NDE/OBE and didn't LIVE to tell about it is that one of them is DEAD.

One of the forumer (forgot the name) here simply made me realized that that is the ONLY difference there is in a patient and a dead person. Which means You don't know the FULL detail of NDE/OBE - since you didn't experience it fully. If you read through the NDE experiences, you will see that there is always a choice (at most times) whether a person wanted to continue forward (via voices, feeling etc) or return back to the body.

Another thing that I can't figure out is WHY the brain need to fake death to FACE death?

I cannot figure out WHY that the brain needs to come out with such an odd behavoir/illusions to soften itself in accepting death where the ultimate result for this attempt is a shut down of the brain itself. I don't know about you guys, but to me, that is like the brain commiting suicide.

Ms. Siv · 11-07-2002, 07:53 PM

A few things to point out.

1. Complete brain death is irreversible. So what we know about NDEs is not from people who recovered from brain death ... because one cannot do so. Period.
2. It has never been suggested that the NDE is a virtual simulation algorithm intended to make the person face real death. Its just the result of stress. When faced with extreme stress, this is what happens to the brain - random firing of neurons etc. And this stress is experienced by the brain of the person having the NDE or OBE as an NDE or OBE.

- Sivakami.

11-07-2002, 08:04 PM

"1. Complete brain death is irreversible. So what we know about NDEs is not from people who recovered from brain death ... because one cannot do so. Period."

My reply : Yes, as I stated earlier. You will probably never know the full extend of a NDE simply because no one experience it fully and lived to tell about it.

"2. It has never been suggested that the NDE is a virtual simulation algorithm intended to make the person face real death. Its just the result of stress. When faced with extreme stress, this is what happens to the brain - random firing of neurons etc. And this stress is experienced by the brain of the person having the NDE or OBE as an NDE or OBE."

My reply : I believe you are contradicting your own statement above. The full experience with NDE results in brain dead where the brain shut off itself, thus that shows that the reason for NDE (most logical one anyway) is that Brain produce this to face it's own demise. In that context, the analogy of "virtual simulation algorithm " fits better than a stress releaser.

My statement is supported by the fact that NDE and OBE occurs to someone who is relaxed as well and not on someone who is on stress alone. I've seen numerous experience (through discovery channel) and experienced it myself (a few times) in a very stress-free situation to show as evidence that NDE may not fit as a Stress releaser.

11-07-2002, 08:59 AM	#1
Heathen Dawn Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,656	What do those NDEs mean? All right, let's suppose, as we materialists must, that the mind dies with the body. Still, what of all the accounts of people having NDEs? I've been reading Raymond Moody's "Life After Life", where he outlines a fairly consistent pattern of reports from NDEers. Does it have no meaning at all? Can it really be dismissed with a wave of the hand and "oh, it's just the dying brain making special effects"? Why does the NDE induce such a consistent, coherent imagery in those who experience it? -- Heathen Dawn, trying to come to grips with the finality of death.

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11-07-2002, 09:18 AM	#2
Bookman Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Nashville, TN, USA Posts: 2,210	Perhaps the Moody book includes a "fairly consistent pattern of reports" because Moody selects reports that fit the pattern and discards the others. There's <a href="http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html" target="_blank">an article on NDE </a> from <a href="http://www.skepdic.com/" target="_blank">The Skeptics Dictionary</a> which includes some additional links at the bottom. Read widely. Bookman

11-07-2002, 10:53 AM	#3
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	For starters, we don't know when the NDE is formed in the brain. Those who posit the supernatural explain that it occurs during a period of "death". However, nearly all the NDE reports have no data to verify that. They may occur before the period of "death". They may also occur after. Or, it may be a combination of both - events occuring before and the brain trying to make sense of them after. Now, why similarities from one to the other? Well, we're all human beings. We all have very similar brains. Why is it not surprising that as we die, our brains undergo similar processes? Furthermore, the standard NDE has gotten a fair amount of media exposure. People have an expectation of what an NDE is supposed to involve. After being near death, people are likely to fill in the blanks of the experience with what they have come to expect. It's similar to the skeptical response to "why are alien abduction stories so similar to one another?" Jamie

11-07-2002, 11:19 AM	#5
JerryM Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO. Posts: 1,100	I would agree that whatever imagery is reported during NDEs results from altered brain function, which though not identical, is fairly similar in all people. This really shouldn't be surprising. Most schizophrenics hear voices. Alcohol withdrawal is frequently associated with visual hallucinations, especially animal images (pink elephants, etc.) Our brains just have a similar physiology. I think a good question is why many people don't report such phenomena. I work in the health care field. I've probably seen 3 or 4 patients who've been resuscitated from cardiac arrest without signifcant brain damage. I've yet to hear anyone tell me about a NDE. [ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: JerryM ]</p>

11-07-2002, 07:29 PM	#7
Ms. Siv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: India Posts: 2,340	Good post, ps418 . There is more and more evidence to suggest that NDEs are just characterisations of how the brain responds to stressful situations. In fact many of the traits of NDEs and OBEs (Out of Body experiences) have been simulated in the laboratory. Susan Blackmore (an academic psychologist) is one of those who actually had an NDE herself and was, for a while, convinced that it was something supernatural. Then she did a lot of research on these and realised that this was not so at all. - Sivakami.

11-07-2002, 07:42 PM	#8
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	The only difference between a person who had NDE/OBE and LIVED to tell about it and one who had NDE/OBE and didn't LIVE to tell about it is that one of them is DEAD. One of the forumer (forgot the name) here simply made me realized that that is the ONLY difference there is in a patient and a dead person. Which means You don't know the FULL detail of NDE/OBE - since you didn't experience it fully. If you read through the NDE experiences, you will see that there is always a choice (at most times) whether a person wanted to continue forward (via voices, feeling etc) or return back to the body. Another thing that I can't figure out is WHY the brain need to fake death to FACE death? I cannot figure out WHY that the brain needs to come out with such an odd behavoir/illusions to soften itself in accepting death where the ultimate result for this attempt is a shut down of the brain itself. I don't know about you guys, but to me, that is like the brain commiting suicide.

11-07-2002, 07:53 PM	#9
Ms. Siv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: India Posts: 2,340	A few things to point out. 1. Complete brain death is *irreversible. So what we know about NDEs is not from people who recovered from brain death ... because one cannot* do so. Period. 2. It has never been suggested that the NDE is a virtual simulation algorithm intended to make the person face real death. Its just the result of stress. When faced with extreme stress, this is what happens to the brain - random firing of neurons etc. And this stress is experienced by the brain of the person having the NDE or OBE as an NDE or OBE. - Sivakami.

11-07-2002, 08:04 PM	#10
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"1. Complete brain death is irreversible. So what we know about NDEs is not from people who recovered from brain death ... because one cannot do so. Period." My reply : Yes, as I stated earlier. You will probably never know the full extend of a NDE simply because no one experience it fully and lived to tell about it. "2. It has never been suggested that the NDE is a virtual simulation algorithm intended to make the person face real death. Its just the result of stress. When faced with extreme stress, this is what happens to the brain - random firing of neurons etc. And this stress is experienced by the brain of the person having the NDE or OBE as an NDE or OBE." My reply : I believe you are contradicting your own statement above. The full experience with NDE results in brain dead where the brain shut off itself, thus that shows that the reason for NDE (most logical one anyway) is that Brain produce this to face it's own demise. In that context, the analogy of "virtual simulation algorithm " fits better than a stress releaser. My statement is supported by the fact that NDE and OBE occurs to someone who is relaxed as well and not on someone who is on stress alone. I've seen numerous experience (through discovery channel) and experienced it myself (a few times) in a very stress-free situation to show as evidence that NDE may not fit as a Stress releaser.

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