Freethought & Rationalism Archive

FunkyRes · 07-23-2002, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lcb:
the christians at my college say that God knew he would have to send his son to redeem mankind and that his son would have to have a people to be born of and a people to begin with and so forth...

Ask them why?
I'm interested in their answer.

Jayhawker Soule · 07-23-2002, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lcb:
the christians at my college say that God knew he would have to send his son to redeem mankind and that his son would have to have a people to be born of and a people to begin with and so forth...

And what do you say?

Radcliffe Emerson · 07-24-2002, 07:02 AM

Mention to them Jesus was said in the NT to be the Jewish messiah, but the entire NT idea surrounding Jesus is from a non-Jewish origin.
Tell them the Jews do not and never have believed their messiah would be God, but a man, who, when he comes, will be very wise and unite the world into peace and harmony.
As anyone can see, that did not happen when Jesus came.

FunkyRes · 07-24-2002, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radcliffe Emerson:
Mention to them Jesus was said in the NT to be the Jewish messiah, but the entire NT idea surrounding Jesus is from a non-Jewish origin.

But that would be a lie, since the Messiah is all through the Old Testament, especially in Isaiah.

CX · 07-24-2002, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FunkyRes:


But that would be a lie, since the Messiah is all through the Old Testament, especially in Isaiah.

I think the point being made is that Jesus does not fit the OT description of the messiah and the NT depiction of him as messiah is based on non-Jewish ideas.

FunkyRes · 07-24-2002, 09:12 AM

Jesus does fit the Old Testament description of Messiah.

If you think he doesn't, please start a new thread claiming he doesn't, and why.

Kosh · 07-24-2002, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FunkyRes:

He wanted Israel to be a Nation of Priests.

Israel was chosen to bear a message, not to be elite.

Funky, do you have any scriptural support for this claim? I've never seen Judaism claimed to be an evangelistic religion.

CX · 07-24-2002, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FunkyRes:
Jesus does fit the Old Testament description of Messiah.

If you think he doesn't, please start a new thread claiming he doesn't, and why.

Alas I am only an interloper here. I did not take a position I merely tried to clarify the point being made. I don't really have a position and frankly could care less wether Jesus does or does not fit the OT description of the messiah.

Jayhawker Soule · 07-24-2002, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FunkyRes:
Jesus does fit the Old Testament description of Messiah. If you think he doesn't, please start a new thread claiming he doesn't, and why.

Perhaps, first, you might reference "the Old Testament description of Messiah" and draw the appropriate parallels.

FunkyRes · 07-24-2002, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Funky, do you have any scriptural support for this claim? I've never seen Judaism claimed to be an evangelistic religion.

There is all kinds of support for it.

Read Solomon's dedication to the temple, for starters!

II Chronicles 6:42-43

Quote:

As for the foreigner who does not belong to your people Israel but has come from a distant land because of your great name and your mighty hand and your outstretched arm- when he comes and prays toward this temple, then hear from heaven, your dwelling place, and do whatever the foreigner asks of you, so that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you, as do your own people Israel, and may know that this house I have built bears your Name.

Another example is Psalm 67
It's short- I'll quote the entire thing.

Quote:

For the director of music. With stringed instruments.
A psalm. A song

May God be gracious to us and bless us
and make his face shine upon us, Selah
that your ways may be known on earth,
your salvation among all nations.

May the peoples praise you, O God;
may all the peoples praise you.
May the nations be glad and sing for joy,
for you rule the peoples justly
and guide the nations of the earth. Selah

May the peoples praise you, O God;
may all the peoples praise you.

Then the land will yield its harvest,
and God, our God, will bless us.
God will bless us,
and all the ends of the earth will fear him.

And, of course, there's the Abrahamic Covenant-
I'll just quote Genesis 12:3 part

Quote:

I will bless those that bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.

Then there is, of course, the story of Jonah- which really demonstrates the problem.

Jonoah hates the Assyrians and didn't want them to repent, he would rather that they be destroyed.

This (I'm sad to say) is largely the attitude of Israel today against Palestinians and other arab neighbors.

But God made it clear that HE wanted Ninevah to repent, and it was Jonah's job to preach to them.

In the end, Jonah ended up in Ninevah and the people repented.

God always wanted Israel to be a light shining on a hill for the other nations, they just didn't want to be, which is why they really never had missionary efforts (though there were some) to the gentiles.

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: FunkyRes ]

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07-24-2002, 07:02 AM	#13
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	Mention to them Jesus was said in the NT to be the Jewish messiah, but the entire NT idea surrounding Jesus is from a non-Jewish origin. Tell them the Jews do not and never have believed their messiah would be God, but a man, who, when he comes, will be very wise and unite the world into peace and harmony. As anyone can see, that did not happen when Jesus came.

07-24-2002, 09:12 AM	#16
FunkyRes Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Antioch, CA Posts: 173	Jesus does fit the Old Testament description of Messiah. If you think he doesn't, please start a new thread claiming he doesn't, and why.

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